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The Forum > Article Comments > Creator of Heaven and Earth > Comments

Creator of Heaven and Earth : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 4/2/2008

The assertion that God is the agency behind the material world leads us into a morass of theological and scientific problems.

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Peter, your article brings to mind Kuhn's notion of scientific revolution and paradigm shift. When the existing system of explanation can no longer accommodate the facts without excessive mental gymnastics a tension is produced which gives rise to some new system of explanatory dogma that either accommodates the untidy bits and pieces or renders them irrelevant. Why not be more explicit than you are? "God", as you refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is an epiphenomenon of human consciousness and society. The old paradigm of God the Creator is abandoned, and we are left to explain that human urge to do good, to love one's neighbor, and to think of the wellfare of posterity. I think I would be described as a secular humanist, and so my paradigm does not have to contort in attempts to rationalise the Holy Trinity. But maybe other difficulties are more implicit in my view. I am keen to understand more. But drop all this metaphysical stuff Peter, or stick to physiology :-)
Posted by Fencepost, Monday, 4 February 2008 2:37:57 PM
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I was actually thinking about a serious analysis of the article, but having read the sort of incredibly ill-informed creationist claptrap (sorry runner, but that's as toned-down as I can manage)that passes for serious thought, I am reduced to three observations.
1. Reading Richard Dawkin's 'The God Delusion' might be useful for anyone whose mind is not so closed that 'belief' always trumps logic and 'faith' always trumps evidence.
2. It is hardly rocket science to work out that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive properties.
3. There is a God and it is the Higgs field.
Amen.
Posted by Pequod, Monday, 4 February 2008 3:10:25 PM
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Well this is just plain dumb.

Sells is essentially arguing that the early Hebrews had no concept of 'make', thus when someone said 'Jebediah made that bed' according to sells, they wouldn't really understand that Jebediah caused the bed to be created from the wood.

It is clear that Peter shows little understanding of the biblical interpretation and science with this irrational but heroic attempt to keep the NOMA view of science and theology intact.

Sells either ignores the many other places in the Bible where God is credited with the creation of everything or he implicitly is arguing that his interpretation is correct over Paul's, John's etc (thus also implicitly rejecting the inspiration and inerrancy of the bible).

One has to wonder why anyone should view the Bible as touching reality based upon Sells approach...but then I guess that is the obvious conclusion that those wanting to be consistent in their approach to finding truth make when they aren't willing to twist logic and reason as Peter is
Posted by Grey, Monday, 4 February 2008 3:12:14 PM
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Fencepost
Your reference to Kuhn is apt in that it describes what happened to theology in the Copernican revolution. The tension between the medieval synthesis and the new discoveries in nature brought about its end as I indicated in my essay. However I do not see it operating to discredit the whole field of theology. The reason being, and this is the same reason that God is not and “epiphenomenon of human consciousness and society” is that the Son anchors God within human history. God is an event, God is what happens between Jesus and us. God is thus immaterial in the same way that patriotism is. So theology is empirical, it relies on Israel’s remembrance of historical events even if these events have been embellished in what we see as supernatural ways. This is why it is important that Jesus was actually a man who lived and died, he is not a myth. All theology must begin with him because he was the true man. So we need no mythical conundrums, no resorting to the extranatural because theology has at its base an objective historical event even if that event does not live up to modern historicism.

It is certainly interesting to see how the freedom of the pseudonym allows contributors to these pages to say things that they would never say face to face. This is a great pity and it allows writers to replace denigration and abuse for sound argument. You will notice that I only answer those posts that are free of such denigration and will continue to do so
Posted by Sells, Monday, 4 February 2008 4:48:02 PM
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*puts on his 'militant' Fundamentalist garb*....

Ok Sells.. the villagers are a gathering.. torches all lit up... time for a lynchin.... :)

Good grief.. the Church has withstood such shallow and empty 'theology' ? from day one.

If Sells does not believe in God the Creator..then I'm sorry but dear Sells has abandoned any right or claim to the name 'Christian'....

I disagree with Sells... what he is saying is
-heretical..
-wrong..
-sinful..
-destructive..
-dangerous..
-holds Christians up to public ridicule.. and contempt.

BUT.. GUESS WHAT... I'd rather be in a society where he is FREEEE to say all that.. and let the ideas themselves win or lose on the strength of them and those behind them.....

than...

live in a society where to vilify religion is UNLAWFUL...

Oh wait.. I DO! live in JUST such a society..its called Victoria.

But don't worry Sells.. even though our RRT2001 DOES apply to things said interstate... I won't be raising a complaint with the EOC..
I welcome your contribution.

I can't let this end without some kind of affirmation to the contrary of what Sells said.. and it's ooooo so simple.. yet profound.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1

Personally, I find it difficult to see how science can dispute that.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 4 February 2008 6:12:22 PM
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Sells, thank you for accepting my humour in like spirit. When I weigh the evidence I am convinced enough that Jesus was an historical figure, and from what is known and can be gathered from the Gospel records he was a really good person. At moments of my highest aspiration I would like very much to be more like him, in his toughness, gentleness, compassion, and insight into what is most important about life. Sure, he was a "child of his time" as is any historical person set in a specific context, but for me he epitomizes what is universally good. But personally I find all the Pauline christology stuff, and the Councils' holy trinity stuff stumbling blocks. The New York Review just had a couple of pages about Peter Gomes'new book, (the resident preacher at Harvard), with some quotations that appealed to me: "although Jesus came preaching a disturbing and redistributive gospel, we do not preach what Jesus preached. Instead we preach Jesus" Not a bad exhortation. Treat yourself to a paradigm shift, abandon the metaphysics, and settle for the best that man can do. Maybe to help others make a transition to this approach it is necessary to use the old christological paradigm, but what a shame to be so burdened. Sincere regards.
Posted by Fencepost, Monday, 4 February 2008 6:16:33 PM
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