waterboy, relda
I indeed appreciate your posts except that I really do not understand why they contradict what I said. When I write “you certainly cannot seek and attain personal salvation without loving your neighbour, living in a community and striving for social justice” how can you claim that I “dismiss the importance of community and social justice in the gospel message”.

“The Gospel is social through and through”. Sorry, waterboy, but this statement, that I had heard many times from my marx-leninist teachers, reminds me of those recent neuroscientists who claim to have found God in the temporal lobe of the brain. Certainly in both cases there is a relation between the message and its carrier, but the latter is not the whole story.

Our parallel monologues have been triggered by my defence of the promise of personal salvation. I never spoke of individual salvation, though I perhaps should not have used the term ‘individual’ at all, since you seem to associate it with individualism (perhaps something like associating community with Communism).

The OT revolves around the covenant with His (a priori) chosen people, whereas my reading of the NT, and certainly of the Christian tradition, is that it is more concerned with (a posteriori) chosen persons (e.g. saints in the Catholic tradition). I think Christianity is incomplete without either of these perspectives, but both, the personal and the communitarian aspects, can be exaggerated at the expense of the other. The 20th century mystic Thomas Merton warns very pointedly (although this only indirectly relates to personal salvation): “The notion of ‘spiritual perfection’ is appropriate rather to a philosopher, who ... has arrived at a state of tranquillity where passions no longer trouble his pure soul. This is not the Christian idea of holiness.”. And there are many warnings about opposite exaggerations, about communities emotionally carried away up to turning themselves (or being turned) into fanaticised crowds.

Perhaps the personalist philosophy of Emmanuel Mounier is the proper compromise between extreme individualism and extreme communitarianism that is also compatible with the Christian message. the “Eastern approach“ is through Khomyakov’s Sobornost.

I guess it is a degree of emphasis George, where our personal salvation is not the goal but the by-product. The gospel does not appeal to us on the basis of our self-interest. The goal is restoration of all that is good and right and beautiful in the entire world. Our personal salvation is only a supporting process, and, I agree this process is not merely social.

Dave here
When are people going to stop arguing their belief on others like I said before no-one can prove God exists no-one can prove he doesn't answer what came first the chicken or the egg the big bang caused the making of the universe who or what created the big bang evolution is the making of life & its' forms but who or what created the first life form it goes on & on.
The belief or non-belief in God or a God of your own belief is your right
If people want to do something worthwhile why not pressure the DoCs ministers to stop the abuse of children & get a decent soceity going in this country
Thanks for your time & again may your lord shine on you well
God Bless Dave

Well, relda, I agree, we do not disgaree in principle, only in a different reading, a different emphasis if you like, of the Good News. That in itself is not bad news.