Passy.

Well that revolution is a long way off because the working class are just as dependent on private property as are the owners of the means of producing private property.

While old Karly Marx may have foreseen this as the solution he was speaking directly to an economic and political situation that was not as it is now.

The foundational premise of Aboriginal sovereignty is born out of legal not economic arguments.

In Marxist terms - How can the original owners of the means of production be included as part of the working classes?

The issue of reparation remains outstanding.

This country was never ceded by Aboriginal people, it was never settled on the basis of a declaration of conquering Aboriginal people - instead it was colonised on the basis of a legal myth of terra nullius.

The illegal acquisition of this country has not been dealt with in the national or international courts.

It is, and remains to be, the legal elephant in the court room anytime issues relating to Aboriginal people are addressed.

Cheers!

Here we go. The re-write of history begins.

'What Stalin set up was a form of capitalism in which the state became the collective embodiment of capital, exploiting the working class and expropriating the profit the workers made.'

What utter crap. Stalin set up the ultimate communist regime. It simply proved communism was and is an ideal that cannot work. It slaughtered millions became bankrupt and destroyed the environment. What a wonderful display of profit!

Why don't you lefties simply give it up and join the rest of us liberal democrats. You enjoy the benefits of our system yet hark after the impossible, excuse it's excesses and blame it's failure on our capitalism. If Stalin's system was capitalistic it would have worked just like other capitalistic totalitarian regimes. eg Soharto's Indonesia, Marco's Philipines.

Jez the lessons of a re-written history are worse than useless.

Passy,

'In my view the solution to the question of aboriginal sovereignty, because it may challenge the idea of private property, can only occur after a democratic and socialist working class revolution in Australia.'

I think you need to sit and listen to Indigenous Australia and see how they decide their own sovereignty. I think you are well meaning but don't seem to see the lesson of history here. We the non-indigenous Australians have been deciding for generations what solutions are best for Indigenous Australians and imposing our solutions.

If the Indigenous solution is one that involves communistic systems ... on current Aboriginal leadership thinking ... I'd be very much surprised, but if that's what was decided I'd support such an approach.
But the more pertinent question is: Would you support an Indigenous chosen approach which adopted capitalistic systems?

Dear Ms Foxy.

Malcolm Fraser has apparently gotten you teary eyed over some speech where he appeals to the highest ideals. Such Idealism really impresses young people, and Fraser knows it. But if I were you, I would develop a healthy scepticism towards people who preach and wag their fingers at others. Fraser got caught with his pants literaly down in a cheap hotel in New Orleans. If his wife can't trust him, you shouldn't either.

As well as an enthusistic supporter of aboriginal self deturmination, Fraser was also an enthusiastic supporter of Mugabe in Rhodesia. Fraser wanted black majority rule in Rhodesia, and he got it.

Rhodesia went from being the breadbasket of Africa to an Aid dependent basket case, which is what always happens when you give black people independence. "Democracy" in Africa means "one man, one vote, once." You may have noted the article in "The Australian" newspaper recently where a "Zimbabwe" governent official said it would be "a good thing" if 2 or 3 million "Zimbaweans" starved to death because "there are too many Zimbweans".

I used to be as anti racist as you are, but two things began to change my mind. The first was that black communities everywhere are totally dysfunctional, and the only reason that the trendies can give for this phenomonon is to always blame white people for it. If I have been brought up to instantly recognise racism, you can hardly condemn me for seeing it in articles which attack white people.

The article which we are commenting upon is a good example.

It is clearly racist itself, but you can not see it, can you? The author even accuses Australians of genocide, using the six new "definitions" of genocide that the UN has helpfully invented. Apparently, the UNHRC has authorised itself to redefine the English language to suit it's political agenda.

"Words mean exactly what I say they mean. No more, no less" ALICE IN WONDERLAND.

The second, was because I do enjoy reading history and the accusations of the Socialist left do not conform to what I have read.

Passy “What Stalin set up was a form of capitalism in which the state became the collective embodiment of capital,”

As Lenin said

“Communism is the goal of socialism”

And I can add

“Stalinism was the consequence of communism”

As Lenin found with the kulaks, you cannot suppress the natural ability of some to outperform others and rise above the lot of the masses.

As for “occur after a democratic and socialist working class revolution in Australia.”

Great line, oh a classic, gotta write that down somewhere and bring it out at dinner parties.

Don’t hold your breath Passy or you will die of suffocation.

Real life, most “Australians”, who came as migrants from UK and their offspring, came because the UK was looking too much like heading toward some form of “socialist working-class revolution” (as Marx had assumed 100 years before, hence he lived, died and is buried in London, not Moscow).
These days those folk would rather spend a day on the beach or firing up a BBQ than fighting, hand-to-hand to bring about a revolution of any sort.

And lets face it, aborigines are a tiny minority, who presently make more noise than their “proportional voice” deserves.

Anyway, an “aboriginal working-class revolution” would fail simply because I doubt you would ever find even a handful of “working-class” aboriginals.

Rainier “Are you saying you don't love me anymore Col?”

It is only your narcissistic self-image which allows you to delude yourself that I ever did, rainier.

“It is, and remains to be, the legal elephant in the court room anytime issues relating to Aboriginal people are addressed.”

Actually that elephant was released at federation, retrained and worked in a circus, performing acts to amuse the easily beguiled, until it died of old age and boredom.

“In Marxist terms”

Marx would say the precolonial “capitalist owners” of the land, aborigines, do not deserve reparation or compensation but should toil as equals alongside the "white" peasant masses.

Dear Redneck,

Thank you for being so open and honest in expressing your opinions.
And Thank you also for your quote from "Alice in Wonderland."
I however prefer the following quote:

"Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly."
Langston Hughes.

Malcolm Fraser did not make me "teary-eyed." I'm actually not that easily swayed, preferring arguments based on facts and logic. Although politics has dominated much of Malcolm Fraser's life, I've admired his humanitarian works towards a fairer, less racist world.

Of course he's made mistakes, it's not something to which even politicians are immune. But you have to admire the notable legislation passed during his leadership which included:

* the Social Services Amendment Act 1976 - increasing the
rate of child endowment
* the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act 1976
giving Land Rights to Northern Territory Aboriginal people
* the Ombudsman Act 1976 establishing an office of Commonwealth
Ombudsman
* the Federal Court of Australia Act 1976 establishing a court
of appeal to operate in areas of federal and territory law
* the Northern Territory (Self Government) Act 1978 establishing
a fully elected legislative assembly for the Northern
Territory powere in most respects equal to state powers
* the Aboriginal Development Commission Act 1980 provided
funding mechanism for Aboriginal enterprises, housing and
other services
* the Human Rights Commission Act 1981 and
* the Freedom of Information Act 1982 establishing a legally
enforceable right of access to the public for information held
by ministers and officials

In 1977 the government established SBS to provide multilingual radio
and television services... and the list goes on.

Malcolm Fraser has provided national leadership in the pursuit of human rights over a long period, including consistent support for reconciliation between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians and leadership in the fight against racism nationally and internationally.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want. I tend to go on someone's overall track record - and the historic facts that are available through Government files and Archives.