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The Forum > Article Comments > Logic and the education of girls > Comments

Logic and the education of girls : Comments

By Leslie Cannold, published 3/11/2005

Leslie Cannold argues young women should be educated about their work and family lifestyle choices.

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Reason: Nothing wrong with crying men, or one that seems gay but has children (not that that's proof of sexual tendencies.) Your argument that some women are stronger is true, but I'd prefer to stick to general terms rather than exceptions to the rule. It's an irrefutable fact that generally, men are physically stronger than women.

If you choose to go through life believing that "The only differences between men and women are the way they use a toilet and that one carries a baby to term. Period", you'll be constantly frustrated and confused, because there's differences that can't be attributed to choice/environment, eg, communication skills, behavioural differences due to hormones. Eg, women with higher than normal levels of testosterone will have more aggressive behaviour than those that don't. Women with higher than normal levels of female hormones (eg, pregnant women, PMS) will generally behave moodily, be tired, etc. To say we're all the same except for babies/genetalia is simplifying a very complex phenomenon.

Physically, a man that is tall & broad with a deep voice will have more success getting what he wants at work than a slightly built man with a soft quiet voice. That's "using his masculinity". What's wrong with that? Conversely, a women can achieve the same result using her femininity (not to be confused with sexuality). I see nothing wrong with that either. Both achieve the same outcome, but with different gender-specific behaviour.

We will never get away from the fact that visual differences between us affect our reactions/behaviour towards each other - at work and anywhere else. To want men and women to all behave the same is unrealistic because it would have to be at work, home, socially. You couldn't just restrict it to work. For us to behave the same, we'd have to ignore the physical differences, so we'd all have to be either blind or try looking/dressing the same. No thanks.

PS: I think it's nice that you open the door for men. I always thought men did it so they could check you out from behind.
Posted by lisamaree, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 1:37:06 PM
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Lisamaree,
I understand what you are saying and, to some extent, agree. Visually we will always react differently to the opposite sex – and to others of the same sex, depending on the situation (i.e. intimidation, arrogance, etc.).

I also agree that it is rather an oversimplification that defining men and women solely via babies/genitals. However, the same can also be observed within the sex. To say that most women will be moody depending on the time of month/amount of hormones in their system is also rather broad. Many women react rather mildly – as is the case with men. Some display rather regressive responses to testosterone while others rarely display any aggressive tendency.

I would disagree that a man with large physique and deep voice will have more success getting his way (likewise for a woman’s femininity). And I disagree that there is nothing wrong with this. Firstly, many good and effective managers do not use their size/presence to motivate but their skills and example of leadership.

Second, there is something very wrong when a person uses their presence (whether masculine or feminine) to achieve. I know this does happen but that does not make right. Competence should be paramount, not charisma or intimidation. In addition, this should apply to the larger arena of life in general.

True, these are ideal concepts and the reality is that this gender-defining mindset does exist. But my point is we should be striving to achieve the ideal – people are judged on individual merit and behaviour – not on a pre-determined stereotype. Without the ideal as a goal to work towards, we do not move forward, we do not improve. We simply mark time – and that in the end leads to complacency – which in turn leads to a degradation of the status quo. Things get worse…
Posted by Reason, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 8:17:24 PM
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Reason - of all the names we posters use on this forum yours would have to be the most apt. Along with people like enaj, whenever I see a post from you I am filled with optimism and reassurance.

I am reassured to know that there are men like you who see us all as human beings first, our gender second.

In the range of human abilities and foibles there is massive overlap ie , aggressive women/timid men. To continue to evaluate people starting with their gender is limiting and lessens our possibilities.

Thanks

(formerly Trinity)
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 7:46:46 AM
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Scout (previously Trinity),
May I return the compliment? The voices of reason, (including Reasons) and there are many of them, on these posts are always heartening, and yours is especially so.
Posted by enaj, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 9:05:50 AM
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Reason, compliments galore...nice.

I totally agree with you that we should be judged on individual merit & behaviour. What I'm on about is the fact that I'm expected to repress my femininity. At the same time, I wouldn't expect you to repress your masculinity.

Perhaps if we made the distinction between "equality" and "sameness". You and I can be treated equally, but not necessarily the same. Problems arise when women expect to be treated the "same" as men, rather than "equally".

Enaj: Comprehensive studies have been done on the "value" of women (or men) staying at home as house-spouses. They do the equivalent of two people's jobs. Although they may not be appreciated by many, there is more understanding and awareness of their value, not just to their immediate family, but for the general community.

There is a place for feminism, but I still maintain we need to remind ourselves of the difference between being treated as equally as men, and being treated the same as men.
Posted by lisamaree, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 12:00:16 PM
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We may understand the value of women at home looking after kids, but we still don't value them. I was home for 5 years with 2 small kids and was treated like, well, excreta. By friends, by family (particularly my father, who found it impossible to talk to me), by shop keepers, government agencies, school teachers, the media and, especially, people at dinner parties, whose eyes would glaze over when they asked me what i did and I told them. The only people who didn't treat me that way were other women, particularly those who identified as feminists. I went back into the work force and , bingo, the world thought I was worth something again.
I don't know about you, Lisamaree, but I don't want to be treated like a woman, or a man. I want to be treated like a person, like me, an individual, as different from other women as I am from men. I don't want you to make assumptions about my life, attitudes, brain power, earning power, status, importance or anything else based on what someone believes about women. I want you to judge me as you find me, without measuring me against some invisible, acceptable, female-behaviour yardstick.
If I'm too stroppy for your taste, fine, as long as you don't think to yourself she's too stroppy for a woman, in which case, I feel I'm being judged according to a double and unfair standard.
Posted by enaj, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 1:43:10 PM
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