My mother is a "feminist" - in the true sense of the word, ie, she believes we're all equally intelligent, that women should have equal rights as men, not the hard-core " I need to be like a man, do like a man to be equal to a man" business. Choosing not to have a career may not be about "giving way to a lesser role", or about "being kept", and it's too bad that some women demean their gender by implying that it is. Any occupation, whether traditional or not, has a purpose. Gender has nothing to do with it.

I have found that negative gender bias towards women in the workplace is generally directed towards the hard-core feminists - these are the ones who jump up and down and make a fuss that they're not getting what they want because they're female - and they're the ones who should take responsibility for themselves and stop expecting women to forego their femininity in the expectation it will get them to the board room (or the high court).

I'm all for more male / female balance in the workplace, but where's the advantage of having a workplace full of men, and women who want to be like men? There's no "balance" in that. I think we can all agree that men and women are equally capable - but we're also different - we should celebrate the fact that we complement each other, not just in capabilities, but in values, goals, perception, ideals - we could learn a lot from each other and bring that with us into workplace.

Lisamaree,
I'm a feminist, my mother was one, my grandmother was one and my sisters, aunt, cousins and daughters are feminists, not to mention my father and husband, and none of them, and none of the women I know who call themselves feminists hate men or want to be "just like" a man. But they do want to be as respected, they do want to be paid as fairly and to have as much control over their bodies, careers and destinies as men do.
Who are these "hard core" feminists? Are they simply women who refuse to keep silent because what they say may annoy others? Why is a stroppy, hard headed male boss admired for being strong, while an equally stroppy, hard headed female one is considered a bitch? Is it possible we have two standards of behaviour, one for men and one for women? And is it also possible that feminists irritate because they point such things out?
In the workplace, I agree with you, there is no point in being a man in a skirt, but that is what it seems to be demanding. We're damned as hard faced bitches if we don't have kids, and damned as not serious enough, not committed enough to our work if we do. Why can't a woman just be a person? As individual, different and flawed as any other person? Maybe that's all most feminists really want, you know, that women be judged as people first and women second.

I think we would do well to start respecting both women and men for who they are as individuals rather than using work as a status symbol. I have found that after years of being 'someone' when I had a respectable and interesting career I have suddenly become a 'no-one' among the so-called feminists (especially the childless ones) when I admit to being at home - even if it is only a temporary situation. I find it very hard to explain that my life is extremely rewarding and I have opportunites to do all sorts of things that I would never have been able to with a full time job. The reason why work is so good for self esteem is simply that so many people treat unpaid work as a second rate.

I intend going back to work sometime and look forward to having some spare cash for a change. However there is little chance of resuming my career and I have had to retrain in a new field to give me some chance of a professional role. I know many others in the same position as myself who have basically had to give up their previous careers when taking more than the standard one year maternity leave. This seems a waste of years of education and experience.

Enaj. I'm not saying women shouldn't be treated equally, flaws and all. But what are the parameters? How is it "equal" for a woman that wants to have the door held open for her? or resents being "treated differently" if you do hold the door open for her? or a woman that wants to be treated "equally", but can't lift heavy objects? that wants to be treated like a "person" but wears micro-mini skirts to the office? or who gets offended if she hears swearing or a dirty joke? or who needs time off every month? and the list goes on and on. These are all valid differences that are neither good nor bad, they just are.

I think when people complain about being treated differently at work, they're experiencing the difference in "standards" between men and women. Men and women do have different standards of behaviour, both at work and at home. Plus people don't like aggressive women (either at work or socially) because it's considered a male trait and they feel threatened by it, just like people wouldn't hold a man in high regard if he cried a lot because it's considered feminine. So to become the kind of "equal" that you're wanting between genders, we'd have to genericise all gender behaviour, and not only at work but at home as well. Alternatively, we could try understanding and respecting the differences (I'm sure there's a zillion studies on that topic) learn to like them, and capitalise on them.

What you were saying about being perceived as a hard-faced bitch for not having kids - I've never come across this and it says more about the person who thinks it - with values like that they're not worth thinking about.

If I get to the door first, I hold it open. If someone holds it open for me, I thank them. Courtesy should be extended regardless of gender, race, age or anything else. Women who object to this are being silly, and, of course there are silly feminists, just as there are silly anything elses, one (or even1000) bad feminist does not make the philosophy of feminism bad. There are bad Christians, bad democrats, bad liberals and bad conservatives, they prove nothing except that all humans are flawed.
By and large, it is not feminists who discount women who choose to stay out of the workforce with kids, how could they? Most of them, like me, have done it, have been there. Society is not interested in women at home, it never has been. Oh, it says it is, but words mean nothing without actions. In this society, like it or not, we symbolise the value we place on things by the money we pay to it, and we don't give mums at home much at all. Single mothers will soon be getting even less.
Feminism, if not all feminists, should be about supporting women to make whatever choice they want to, work, home, motherhood, a combination, whatever. And helping them resist societies pressure on them to always take the worst paid, least powerful, least interesting option, by which I don't mean motherhood, I mean the crappiest jobs with the lowest pay. 70% of households living beneath the poverty line are headed by women, this statistic says something profound about how we value women and mothers and why we still need feminism.

Lisamaree,
Subject to enaj’s comments, I would take issue with points you made.

Your first paragraph – “How is it "equal" …that are neither good nor bad, they just are.”

I would hold that none of them is a valid ‘differences’. How is opening a door, what one wears to work or language one uses a difference? These are modes of behaviour – some are courtesies, as enaj points out. I choose to hold the door open for males. Does that make me gay? You should not equate behaviour with gender.

As to lifting heavy objects, there are women who are actually stronger than some men are. Do they get special dispensation? On the other hand, does the man become ‘less a man’?

The second paragraph – “I think when people complain … it's considered feminine.”

The only differences between men and women are the way they use a toilet and that one carries a baby to term. Period. All others form through world experience and choices. Some men are effeminate – I know a man you would swear was gay but is happily married with children. What would be wrong with him?

That we as a society currently associate behaviour with gender is a sad reflection of our past. The values of modern society espouse to equate behaviour with acceptable or not – regardless of gender. The level of success is currently low.

Example men crying being seen as unmanly. Is it not a healthy thing to release feelings? Isn’t this what we try to teach men? Just as any form of managerial aggressiveness is not acceptable either. It should be an issue regarding management style rather than the gender. A man should not be congratulated for being aggressive, as no woman should be congratulated for being sweet and cute when her management role is to lead.

In fact, your statement, regarding generalising gender behaviour is spot on. We should be. Judge individuals on behaviour rather than gender. Any expectation for behaviour based on gender is limiting, narrow minded and deconstructive to all individuals – and society.