Dear Enaj
your experience speaks volumes about the tone of many of your postings .. specially in response to some of mine.

I feel sympathy for the ill treatment you bore the brunt of during your nurture/home management phase, and wish to asure you that such work is valued and valuable.

I think you might need to develop some new social network contacts.. those who don't look down on a mother doing the 'nesting'.
But you mentioned on your list of 'enemies' also the 'media'.... umm possibly you were reading into 'it' your own negative feelings at the time.

You mentioned that you experienced the 'attitude' from your dad and family ? That would indeed have left scars but I'm wondering why a dad would treat his daughter like that ?

Your kind of experience is one reason I'm so passionate about a Biblical understanding and position on the male/female roles. It doesn't exclude the idea of work, but it does give a framework of caring values which are totally the opposite of what you experienced at the hands of your list of 'enemies'. The last thing you should ever expect is to be looked down on for doing what comes naturally, (caring for your children)....

Last night at Bible Study, (5 guys and 1 lady, the female host) we discussed some issues, including how they are going to manage the situation with their 19 yr old daughter who is about to give birth (unmarried).. also looked at self defence, and now, next time I say to her 'slow motion' for the kick response to a male attacker.. I'll say it like this "SLOWWWWWW motion" :) as my finger is almost unusable from the 'demo kick' she gave my leg....my hand happened to be inbetween her foot and my thigh.

Boaz David,
Your religion, like all the others, largely patronises and condescends to women instead of valuing them.
You tell us we are all very well in our way, lovely and much valued - as mothers, of course, not as people - but we should "obey", we should be "guided", we should believe we are slightly less able to take a leadership role than blokes. "Our husband should be to us as Jesus Christ is to our husband", I heard at a High Anglican wedding service, only my affection for the bride prevented me getting up and stalking out. This is nonsense. Her marriage was, predictably, a disaster, by the way.
You have also utterly misunderstood my post. My father found it hard to talk to me because we had always discussed business in the past and he was proud of my (small) success in that world. When I was home with small kids (and pretty bored and unhappy) he was bewildered by it and didn't know what to talk to me about. He still loved me and supported me. I have many warm and supportive social networks, I have rarely suffered much at all, but that is largely because I fiercely stand up for myself and my right to follow my own star. This annoys many people and many criticise me for it, it is not womanly or feminine enough for some. But I can tell you this, it makes for a fun, satisfying and interesting life. I am not some infant in need of guidance by my big stwong wise hubby. I am responsible for myself and face the world head on as an adult should.

Lisamaree,
I like the way you separate equality from sameness. Well put.

I also agree that some women try to be treated ‘the same’ as men when it’s not possible. However, there is overlap between ‘the same’ and equality.

To be treated ‘the same’ when going for promotion isn’t similar to being treated ‘the same’ with respect to expectations on likes, dislikes, hobbies, conversation topics and literature tastes.

I believe most women ask only that they are not treated as weaker or less competent in any endeavour, simply because they are women. I also know some militants abuse the system – as do men.

I am sure you’ve seen, in this forum, some men’s attitudes to women’s ‘roles’. I argue that those roles were for another time and are as archaic as ‘bloodletting’ is useful for curing schizophrenia.

At any rate, you have helped clarify a term in my mind that will assist me in discussing the issue with others. For that, I thank you.

Enaj,
I understand your point. With a mother who raised 4 children, worked 3 jobs, earned 2 degrees and rose to the highest position in a number of Queensland public organisations – while being a single parent, I know the difference between being treated as a person and being treated lesser. There will always be those who feel threatened by the concept that women are nothing less than equal (though not the same, with a nod to Lisamaree).

I would make one more point.

Concepts of what are womanly, manly, feminine and masculine are from old world ideas that worked in an unequal, stereotyped time. A step to overcoming this would be to negate the need to define people this way. These terms are useful adjectives to describe behaviour. But, to use them as judgement on whether they are successful in their gender?

I would ask the following questions:
* Does it really matter whether a woman is feminine or a man masculine?

* Does an ill-fitting stereotype preclude the person from being a good, decent person or particularly effective or competent in their gender?

Hello Reason

You asked:

"I would ask the following questions:
* Does it really matter whether a woman is feminine or a man masculine?

* Does an ill-fitting stereotype preclude the person from being a good, decent person or particularly effective or competent in their gender?"

I have often pondered the meaning of "feminine" and "masculine" and what the hell it all means.

I am frequently told that I am very feminine, something I find amusing and bemusing.

I rarely wear dresses or frilly clothes, or makeup, have short hair.

I also practice martials arts, used to gad about on motorbikes, have an excellent sense of direction, am good at maths, good spatial abilities - all supposedly 'masculine' traits.

I can only conclude that I am regarded as 'feminine' because of my appearance. I most definitely look like a woman. So I really wonder why some people think that women are in danger of 'losing their feminity' if they do things like climb on the roof of their home to clean out guttering, perform minor repairs to their cars or even burb loudly in public - I have done all - still waiting to be called butch or some kind of pretend man.

I think it really is based on appearance and an attempt to place people in limiting boxes. Which brings me to your second question.

I believe that I was limited as a young girl by trying to fit a stereotype - I had excellent skills in maths and science and have always regretted not purusing those ablilities and followed a career in biology - which is still a passion.

All this is purely anecdotal of course.

I would like to add that when I see so-called feminine behaviour in men such as crying or tenderness or caring for children etc I always think there goes a real man. What I should be thinking is there goes a real human being.

Love to all.

If nothing else this article has highlighted (for me anyway) the relevance of "femininity" and "masculinity". While some think it's about fixing the roof or being good at maths, for me they're less tangible than that. They've nothing to do with abilities or appearance. There are many "beautiful" poeple that don't exhibit much femininity or masculinity. I'm saying don't repress it. Embrace it because you shouldn't be judged by it or treated in a lesser way because of it. A woman should be able to feel/be feminine and in control of her life at the same time. And get a job in the High Court without having to repress, compromise or change herself in any way to get there.

To enaj: big stwong hubby LOL! It's no wonder those bible study meeting have 500% over-representation from males.

It's been a pleasure talking with you all.