Vanilla,
I don’t think Germaine Greer actually took any photos, just borrowed photos from others. She may not have the talent to take photos, just the talent to borrow photos from others and malign men.

The statement by Audrey Apple on her gossipy and profane blogsite doesn’t appear to be original either. So she may not have the talent for anything original, just the talent to malign little boys.

Turnrightthenleft.
I think you have a crush on me, as you write about me a lot, and also keep following me around on various forums.

It is non-plutonic I can assure you.

But you recommend as a feminist Leslie Cannold, who recently wrote a book with a chapter titled “The Trouble With Men” (ie. There is always something wrong with men no matter what they do)

And you also recommended a feminist website that had slogans such as “So many Boys, So Little time”, and “Sticks and Stones May Break my Bones, But Whips and Chains Excite Me”.

Now you seem to want me to call myself a feminist, but after your recommendations regards feminist authors and feminist websites, I feel very lucky not to have to call myself a feminist, or any other type of “ist”

Whitty: "I do have an interest in what you have to say..."

Sorry. I sounded whiny in my last post. I've enjoyed our discussion and I think we do have some common ground.

I understand what you say about the PR war. I think 100 things about it. In many ways, I agree absolutely. Domestic violence, for example - one of the worst cases I know of involved a lesbian couple. I also agree that class inequity trumps gender inequity - your doctor's wife. That was my entre into men's issues, years ago. I was arguing politics with my then-boyfriend, and said, "I can never be Prime Minister." He said, "But neither can I." It was true, and changed my perspective entirely.

BUT it also makes me think of the love and pride I have for the women who fought for me to vote and contribute in public life. Yvonne talked beautifully about this. Like her, I adore the men in my life, but I'm the daughter of a working class woman who became a doctor, and feminism made her life, and mine, immeasurably richer. Maybe you need to realise that some women's loyalty to feminism has *nothing* to do with men. It's to do with the opportunity to life a full life. Neither of my grandmothers could.

Looking back at your posts, I see you're mad at you mum for her feminism. I'm sorry. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but if she alienated you, it could have been because she was a bad mother, rather than a feminist.

Having said that, I am NOT reducing your argument to some Freudian mother thing. As a feminist, I think you have a perfectly valid argument.

I'm sure these conversations will be ongoing, but to be honest, HRS's. missives make it impossible for me to chat. I know it's harsh, but he gets nasty, and I don't need it.

TurnLeftTurnRight,
You are a beacon of common sense in an HRSy fog of illogical self-rightousness and cr@p. Your tenacity and common sense and bravery rocks. Marry me.

Vanilla,
Your saying that I'm fog, illogical, self-rightousness and cr@p.

Now that is quite abusive, but I was lead to believe that feminists are not abusive.

I think it was a waste of time giving you the link to Dorris Lessing's interview. I think you didn't learn anything.

Next you will be saying that boys are made of slime and snails, like another non-abusive feminist I am aware of.

HRS,James H, Whitty etc, You are a beacon of common sense and FACTS against the massive onslaught of feminist narcissism, missinformation, abuse and double standards.
Your bravery & plain guts inspire us all, & I don't want or need to marry any of you.

"Your saying that I'm fog, illogical, self-rightousness and cr@p."
No. I'm saying what you *write* is foggy, illogical, self-righteous cr@p. I think *you* are a bully who masquerades as a victim. I think you've been maltreated by a bitter ex-wife in the Family Court, pay a lot of child support for little access, and have become a professional victim. You won't believe it, but I feel for you.

"That is quite abusive, but I was lead to believe that feminists are not abusive."
Not abuse - harsh but valid criticism. I can take criticism - it strengthens argument - so I'm happy to dish it out. What you have been led to believe about feminism is no concern of mine. Though you need better teachers.

"it was a waste of time giving you the link to Dorris Lessing's interview."
Actually I loved that interview. And agreed with it. Thanks again for posting it. I have forwarded it on to (male and female) friends.

"Next you will be saying that boys are made of slime and snails, like another non-abusive feminist..."
I agree with you that Audrey isn't abusive. Abuse is a serious thing, and, as several people have explained to you before, the "slime and snails" thing is nursery rhyme wordplay.

I would never tar all blokes with the same brush. Please be clear, HRS, it is *you* I have a problem with, not men. Your nastiness on the thread about Audrey's mother's death was *astounding*. Why exploit someone else's grief? Especially when you have so many avenues to express yourself.

You do not represent men, HRS. You betray them. The men I know are not victims. They are strong, masculine, true to themselves - they cannot be dictated to by women, just as the women I know cannot be dictated to by men. Instead, we seek to find the common ground with each other, and find strength in union rather than opposition.

What you most resemble is the thing you most despise - an unforgiving gender radical, unable to empathise with the opposite sex. You are Germaine Greer.

Bravo, Vanilla! Bravo!