Most people knew of this man as the man behind 'Crazy Johns' that's all. His private life, ie his religion etc., were quite rightly private and we never knew about these things nor did we need to know.

He was a very successful businessman and seemed a lovely Australian (and yes, of Turkish background). He died unexpectedly and this was clearly very sad for those who knew and liked him.

That's it for the rest of us though, so crapping on about a religion is just more red herring guff in the margins of a piece of Australian business history.

Since the author and 1st commenter brought this all up, I think it is worth noting that it is precisely John Ilhan's "Australian-ness" that is worth emphasising. It allows other Australians to understand him and his success. 98.4% of Australians by the 2006 census are not muslim so it has no bearing on most of us.

The link below has nothing to do with such a well-mannered gentleman as John Ilhan who by all accounts treated his wife and female relatives as any civilised person should.

However, the link has everything to do with noting that it was not his Turkish-Muslim identity that made him famous or well liked throughout Australia. In fact, the story of the West today is that many (clearly not all) male Turks find it hard to settle in our societies despite the alleged modernity of Turkey. Remember Turkey is attempting to join the EU and yet it does not appear to offer the full range of European, Western civilised values as its social norm. Take Germany today, for example:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/29/international/i114652D02.DTL&tsp=1

Ro,

I think it was a little unfortunate that you mentioned Germany in this context.

After the war, Germany brought in cheap labour from Turkey to rebuild their country. Their descendants, although born on German soil, are still classified as "Guest Workers".
This has undoubtedly isolated them from mainstream society.

I knew Greeks and Italians who upheld the "old ways" from their countries of origin. Much later, on returning "home" they were shocked to find out that the "old ways" had well and truly gone, being replaced by modern societies. Many of their children had a hard time
breaking free of restrictions placed on them by their parents. However, there is certainly no evidence of any social differences between the later generations and the average anglo-aussie.

Irfan,

"And these people need to come out of the halal closet"

EXACTLY!

Unfortunately, we do not hear their voices loud enough (if at all) in protest of what some Muslim fundamentalist leaders come out with. If they were to challenge these people, the average Aussie would see Islam in a completely different light. Aussies argue loudly about the rights and wrongs of this party or other, or this denomination or other. We need to see the same occurring in the Muslim community. With virtual silence from Muslims, you can't really blame many Aussies for thinking that all Muslims are in tacit agreement, or are too cowered by their leaders to speak out.

Even you, Irfan, often come across as an apologist - instead of making a definite stance.

Yes, we have had Muslims here since the earliest days and they contributed greatly to this country. I imagine there are mosques dating back into the early 19th century. The descendants of these people are often prominent in the public eye. Like other religious groups in Australia, they regard themselves Aussie first and their religion personal. In fact, it might only be when they are dining and they don't eat pork or drink alcohol, that their religion is noted at all - just, given cursory recognition, and then forgotten. And indeed, their daughters, like other Aussie girls, wear bikinis on the beach.

Yes, death is a tragedy, but what about the other simple verses from the Koran preaching hate and violence against non-Muslims? Are we to ignore them?

These people don't represent the "real" Islam. The real Islam is what you get when Muslims dominate. When Muslims are a minority they play word games, deny the obvious and even lie about their religion and dear prophet.

Here are some more simple verses from Allahs book:
3.178: And let not those who disbelieve think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement.
4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
5.33: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

You would have to look are to find the equivalent of these hateful words in other religions.

See Irf, some people can read. I asked you three years ago to condemn the hate, murder, plunder, torture and rape done by your dear prophet, recorded in Islam's own scriptures. I have you links and references. Tell, when are Muslim going to be offended by the vile things Mohammad did?

Did you see the article today about the hate literature in British mosques?
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2767252.ece

Islam is a cult of hate, death and dishonesty.

Radical Muslim kill, moderates make excuses, lie and pretend the hate and violence has nothing to do with Islam.

Kactuz

Danielle, I agree with you about the reference to Germany and its history of gastarbeiters and I didn't mean to imply that such workers were not at a supreme disadvantage when coming to such a new, bewildering country and under such unstable entry conditions.

[Another more vivid example of that same phenomenon though might be the backwards Rif Valley Moroccans who have entered the Netherlands over the past few decades and have had such profound problems settling into a 21st western society. They, unlike earlier Dutch Indonesian immigrants et al. have had severe trouble fitting into Europe and are so rigid in their 'worldview' that it’s a huge social violence problem for the Dutch (yet also typical of the grossly illiterate.)]

Having a migrant for a father myself, I was only making the obvious point (as the PM did recently) that different migrants bring different worldviews and for all their conservatism, our Greeks, our Italians and many others were not only part of the West already, but their very cultures represented the ancient foundation of our own intellectual and legal system. So there were great similarities here already and we've seen them overcome personal barriers admirably. Plus unlike our little pet fanatics here, they never declared war on their own country (notwithstanding the actions of the homicidal fascists of Italy and Germany).

All countries have troubles dealing with immigrants - look at the Arab Middle East and the way it treats its Asian immigrants today - ghastly!

http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/08/17/slaves-of-the-twenty-first-century/