Irfan,

Good contribution for a good 'ol crazy John: a good Aussie businessmen.

Peace,

F.H... you said it well.. "a good aussie businessman".... its only when IRFY seeks to 'Islamize' that basically neutral statement that the 'whackamozzie brigade' come out :)

Whyyyy do we have to see him as anything other than a 'bloke' ?

by emphasizing (as IRF did) his 'honesty integrity' etc.. as 'MUSLIM' characteristics.. when they are equally Christian and to secular humanists...they are also true (even though that mob cannot give a good reason for holding those values)

Pointing out Ilhans "Islam" is not really very productive. It has the immediate effect of others (like me :) pointing to certain less savory aspects of the founder and the faith... not because we hate anyone neccessarily...but for the sake of balance, and to oppose a 'propoganda' use of a mans life.

The issue should always be not "ILhans" Islam..but "Islam". Thats just plain common sense. Its like saying "Pastor Fred Phelps Christianity" which bears little resemblance to the word and life of Jesus.

I don't find any benefit from this kind of thing.. If I judged "Aboriginality" by Charles Perkins..or.. Noel Pearson...or some of the radicals.. I'd have about 5 different versions of "Aboriginality".

If Irf wants to speak about the positive.. he must be prepared to be shown the negative. Otherwise.. he is living in a kitchen too hot :)

Hows things anyway ? I'm snowed under with work for the present..can't breathe..

Boaz: you ask, why do we have to think of him as anything other than 'a bloke.'

My answer is simple - in a perfect world, we wouldn't. But unfortunately, in this world, many people like to point at muslims and claim they're all out to get us. Many people, you among them, make commentary that would indicate Islam is an enemy of the west.

In order to refute this, Irfan has made the point that Mr Ilham was a fine upstanding citizen and a muslim.
Irfan's ultimate point was simple - despite the protestations of many vocal anti-Islam people in the community, there are plenty of Islamic people who are 'just a bloke' as you eloquently put it.

If we don't point out that Islam has these people too, aren't we just caving in to the fundamentalists?

TRTL..... I suppose I'm too conditioned by Malaysia TV... they regularly have timeslots where they parade the latest 'Chinese' convert to Islam..and shower him with gifts..

But I don't recall any among us 'mozziewhackers' (as some put it,-in reality critics of "Islam" ) who have declared "All Muslims are evil" ... do you?

How many ranting, roasting, raving hateful anti Christian anti Christ type posts have you seen here? Remember West ? Alchemist? Kenny? I don't see any reason to say anything about 'so and so is a great person AND a Christian' (hint hint.. so Christianity is rather good actually)

If Irf had said "Doctor so and so, highly respected scientist becomes a Muslim" then its a different matter.. we would look at the reasons...evaluate them, and engage on the 'argument' level rather than the personal.

I don't know who Irfy is trying to persuade but I highly doubt that his words will have any impact on those who actually DO regard all Muslims in the same boat. About as much as telling a Hitler Youth member that "Einstein is a Jew..and thus Jews are ok"

You see..for every Einstein there is also a Marty Frankl who ripped off 1000s of people in insurance scams to support a kinky sex and extravagant 30 luxury car lifestyle. So it works both ways.

As soon as Irf says "Ilhan was a great bloke and a Muslim"... the anti Muslim brigade will mutter about some other toad.

On Ilhans "Islam".. I wonder if he ever borrowed money to expand his business ? and if he paid interest ? If so.. it would make him a 'bad muslim' technically, but just an ordinary bloke to the rest of us.

If he did ever pay interest you would have to add "unfaithful" to his 'Honesty/integrity/Generosity :) but then...that would not be such a good look would it ?

G'Day to you Boazy,

You said:
"Whyyyy do we have to see him as anything other than a 'bloke' ?"

That is the point that myself, Irfan and many other posters are trying to say.

If crazy john wasn't a good person, some media and nut bags would have included his faith and ethnicity everytime his name was mentioned. For an average normal people, Crazy John faith is an extra peace of information about the person and should not be used for or against him.

Have a good day,

Irfan’s article is not about Crazy John it is about Irfan. Exactly who is he trying to convince us or himself? We do not need to know that John Mustafa Ilhan was a Muslim – it should neither add nor subtract to the respect we accord him as a human being. We should all judge each other according to the way we are treated by each other. What a person believes is irrelevant. How they behave is the only thing that matters.

The purpose of the article is for Irfan to try and convince non-Muslims that most Muslims are good people. Since most non-Muslims already accept this we can only presume that the real point of the article is that Irfan is trying to convince himself that as a Muslim he too is a good person. This seems to be the point of most of his articles.

Irfan seems unable to accept the fact that some non-Muslims do not like Muslims. He interpolates from this that most non-Muslims do not like Muslims and therefore we have a big problem. He does not like this same interpolation applied to Muslims however.The statement that some Muslims are terrorists and therefore all Muslims are terrorists is just as illogical as the statement that some non-Muslims are ‘racist’ therefore all non-Muslims are ‘racist’.

“People across Australia are struggling to find words to express their shock at Ilhan's death. My humble suggestion is that they recite this simple verse from the Koran, whose equivalent can no doubt be found in the scriptures of other faiths also. Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajiun. From God we come, and to God is our return.”

Perhaps this is the real problem for Muslims – how do you deal with the harshness of life?
Do you let nature take its course and grieve appropriately or do you seek to alleviate your pain by drugging yourself with religion.