Thank you Irfan for another enlightening contribution. From the newspaper reports, the main impression I got was that a smart businessman had died rather than a great Islamic Australian. Could I recommend a new book 'Big White Lie' (UNSW Press) by John Fitzgerald which examines how Chinese Australians at the start of the 20th century adopted "Australian" i.e. Post Enlightenement Universal values, but were rejected on racial arguments masquerading as cultural determinism. It is all too familar today, and now the Sudanese are being included as well.

Thanks for that enlightening article on a fine citizen about whom most ordinary Australians would not have been aware.
Crazy John made a valuable contribution to multiculturalism and racial tolerance as do many other asylum seekers and refugees.
My sincere condolences to his family

Ian K wrote "From the newspaper reports, the main impression I got was that a smart businessman had died rather than a great Islamic Australian." All the evidence shows that 'Crazy John' was a smart businessman, and good on him for that. Apparently he was a good, honest, ethical person too. You get a lot of points for managing to be both.

Until the man died, I had no idea about his religion, and it's not particularly relevant to me anyway. As it happens, I am Jewish, and that's irrelevant too. What is distressing is that a young family man is lost. I look back on the 20 years more I have had of being part of my family, and contributing to it as a son and husband and father and grandfather. I am full of sympathy for John Ilhan's wife and children and their loss. I am deeply sorry for his mother and father too. I would not want to outlive a child and I'm sure they wish it otherwise.

I don't suppose it is unreasonable to add meaning to John Ilhan's life by demonstrating that a person can be Australian and adhere to the Islamic faith too.

Religion isn't the issue. Mainstream religions would all have those "basic tenets of honesty and integrity". The issue is that some people use religion to (supposedly) add legitimacy to some less excusable barrow they push. I guess that is why I support our secular society, on the understanding that it is founded in a broad acceptance of the values of honesty and integrity and that anyone is free to live their life as they see fit so long as it is not at another's cost.

When I first heard about this man's death I was reminded of the similarities to our own families loss earlier this year of our baby brother, who was the was the same age as this man when he died unexpectantly of a heart attack.

I understand both men were fitness fanatics who watched what the ate and regularly exercised, the only difference being that because of my brother's top physical condition he refused to go see a doctor when he had chest pains. This decision cost him his life and it was only after his death did we find out the he had heart desease and were advised to have check up ourselves.

This decision saved my life, as I found out I have the same problem as well, so my message to all the readers of this page is to learn from these two tragic deaths and have a regular health check-up done ASAP

Irfan must be living in the galaxies, or at least making a living by writing "galactic" fairy tales, to consider that the clash between Islam--as interpreted by those who attacked New York, Bali, Madrid, and London and by a great number of others who are committed to a holy war and ready to enter the ranks of jihad--and the West is "intergalactic".

To make a rare person of Muslim origins like "crazy John", who was the "Kemal Ataturk" of business, totally liberated from his religion and fully integrated, unlike the majority of Muslims, to Australian beliefs and mores, as the embodiment of the feelings and beliefs of most Muslims who, beyond their pretensions, are inimical to the West, is laughable.

This is just another guileful attempt of Irfan to deceive the Australian public about the real beliefs of Muslims toward Western civilization.

http://kotzabasis4.wordpress.com

Drivel Irfan, drivel.

Islam had nothing to do with his financial success and you know it. He actually succeeded despite that mate.

Until I just read Irfan's bias I had never heard of John being referred to as Muslim. It wasn't a part of his advertising I would suggest.

That's because it was just a part of his life, as religion should be.

Shame on you Irfan for trying to use this man's life to try and prove some insane point. Shame.

Really, can't you try reading something else other than Muslim propaganda? It really is people like you that cause the problems between groups of people isn't it? Always claiming one side is the best and the other side the worst. Your type is called "urgers". People who sit on the sidelines stirring others up and then disappear when the trouble starts.

To explain it to you Irfan, Australia works as a country when people do NOT highlight the differences but rather highlight the similarities.

If you must continually talk about your religion then be inclusive. Include Christianity. They are both beliefs for those who need it rather than anything real but whatever helps right?

If you must insist on writing this constant barrage of inflammatory tripe why don't you write an item explaining which God is real. Muslim or Christian? Or are there 2 Gods? Or more?

Irfan as usual is constantly reminding us how worthy good ol' Aussie dinki di Mozzies are,but likes turning a blind eye to the obvious.

Today it was, for example reported that overseas terrorist recruiters were active locally and we had better smarten up our relations with the Moslem community-otherwise a London style attack was inevitable(The Australian).
I find this difficult to regard as other than a thinly disguised threat and staggeringly arrogant.
Australia isnt going to fit into the Muslim way of doing things-its up to them to fit into the Oz way,if they expect any favourable regard from the majority of the community.
As Irfan knows only too well the secular Turks are a whole universe different from the types who are so reviled by the whole world and Crazy John was a secular Turk.
Give up,Irfan,you cant win this debate unless you face the sad reality!

Rob, Mik, Themistocles - you're all missing the point and ignoring the content of the article.

RobbyH: "Until I just read Irfan's bias I had never heard of John being referred to as Muslim. It wasn't a part of his advertising I would suggest.
That's because it was just a part of his life, as religion should be."

Well duh. That's the point Irfan was making when he said:

"These people represent the real face of Australian Islam. They have few, if any, links to overseas governments, and have a greater stake in Australia's security. And these people need to come out of the halal closet and not allow fear of vilification from cultural warriors or fringe thick-Sheiks stop them from laying claim to their faith or heritage."

The fact of the matter is, Mr Ilham was a muslim, and a decent bloke - that's what's being lost on all those who cry all muslims are evil.
Here's one that wasn't - so it's possible we can get along, if we just drop all the hostile rhetoric. Hostile rhetoric, which you three are doing an admirable job of perpetuating.

mik: Crazy john may have been a secular turk. He was still a muslim - that's the point. The problem is, not everybody seems to know that they are worlds away from fundamentalist muslims, as evidenced by the earlier posts.

Look - we can all agree that fundamentalists are to be stopped - Irfan's written as much in other articles. But there are many out there who aren't capable of making the distinction between fundamentalists and reasonable people such as Ilham.

What's frustrating is that you don't have to hate all forms of Islam in order to oppose fundamentalism, but some would have you believe we must. Well Mr Ilham's a fine example of why that isn't so.

Irfan Yusuf: "These people represent the real face of Australian Islam. They have few, if any, links to overseas governments, and have a greater stake in Australia's security. And these people need to come out of the halal closet and not allow fear of vilification from cultural warriors or fringe thick-Sheiks stop them from laying claim to their faith or heritage.

Ilhan defined his values in a profile published in the August 2005 edition of the Australian Financial Review magazine. That profile mentioned how Ilhan carries his Islamic faith with him, every day applying what he sees as basic tenets of honesty and integrity to his business. "

Seems like the whack-a-Mozzie brigade have read Irfan's article with their usual hate-tinted glasses on. Irfan urges prominent moderate Muslims to "come out of their halal closets" as a counter to "fringe thick-Sheiks", and out come the haters:

Themistocles: "This is just another guileful attempt of Irfan to deceive the Australian public about the real beliefs of Muslims toward Western civilization."

RobbyH: "Drivel Irfan, drivel."

mik: "Irfan as usual is constantly reminding us how worthy good ol' Aussie dinki di Mozzies are,but likes turning a blind eye to the obvious".

It really is little wonder that ordinary Muslims tend to keep to themselves or avoid making their religion public, when conciliatory and reasonable articles like this are greeted with such hostility. Not to mention how such attitudes might actually encourage alienation among Muslims.

Moderate Muslims like Irfan and John Ilhan aren't any kind of problem for Australian society, but the hate and intolerance expressed by those above are, as is the inevitable antisocial response by those who are the objects of it.

To talk of fundamentalist Muslims is hardly accurate. One may speak of fundamentalist Christians who take the Bible literally.
Sure sections of Muslim society have chosen asymmetric warfare as a means of correcting what they see as the West’s unfairness perhaps though an analysis by Robert Pape found that the main motive is national or putting it another way removal of foreigners from their country.
Since politicians have the habit of using all tools at hand regardless of consequences, so called Islamic-Fascism has been played up even if at present a minority causing less damage than driving a car or smoking. Sure the Hollywood and treated as such 9?11 was excellent copy and enabled Bush to push for, well whatever he is pausing for the new American century, world dominance, protection of the oil chokepoint of the Persian Gulf or now maybe the Caspian as well.
In large measure we encouraged this element using abusing and discarding them in our fight with Russia in Afghanistan ten to find ourselves the target of their anger. The IRA was eventually defeated noit by force but by dialogue and an attempt at understanding. Not normally a course of action politicians desire preferring the daring do hate you mate approach.
If you doubt then read. May I suggest a starting point might be Ghost wars by Steve Coll, Devil’s Game by Robert Dreyfuss and No God but God by Reza Aslan and continue reading the field is huge always bearing in mind the Phoenix Programme -an example of our terrorism

CJ Morgan-get real-no one was hating or intolerant of Crazy John,which surely is the whole point if you think about it.
He would not have achieved his success,if this were the case.
Starting from the obvious,Australian customers wouldnt have bought from him.
You seem to be saying that all the ugliness which is shown locally,hate preachers etc,crimes against local girls who are fair prey and it goes on and on-these are the fault of the Australian community for not being nice to the Muslems-what a lot of drivel!
We are even supposed to accept that we are at threat unless we accept the conditions set by them.
The truth of course is that the moderates are relatively powerless ,even assuming they are of good will,whilst the true power lies with the fundementalists who stir up the trouble and the easily led young men who use their sermons as an excuse for bad behaviour.
I didnt know Crazy John personally,but would assume that if he was used as a role model,there would be far less problems.
Once again, a secular Turk is different in everyway to those the Australian community do not trust- with good reason.

And did any one notice that at the funeral of this "just-like-us-Muslim" the women, including John's spouse, had to stand away from the coffin? Only men were allowed close to the coffin during the prayers.

Irfan,

Good contribution for a good 'ol crazy John: a good Aussie businessmen.

Peace,

F.H... you said it well.. "a good aussie businessman".... its only when IRFY seeks to 'Islamize' that basically neutral statement that the 'whackamozzie brigade' come out :)

Whyyyy do we have to see him as anything other than a 'bloke' ?

by emphasizing (as IRF did) his 'honesty integrity' etc.. as 'MUSLIM' characteristics.. when they are equally Christian and to secular humanists...they are also true (even though that mob cannot give a good reason for holding those values)

Pointing out Ilhans "Islam" is not really very productive. It has the immediate effect of others (like me :) pointing to certain less savory aspects of the founder and the faith... not because we hate anyone neccessarily...but for the sake of balance, and to oppose a 'propoganda' use of a mans life.

The issue should always be not "ILhans" Islam..but "Islam". Thats just plain common sense. Its like saying "Pastor Fred Phelps Christianity" which bears little resemblance to the word and life of Jesus.

I don't find any benefit from this kind of thing.. If I judged "Aboriginality" by Charles Perkins..or.. Noel Pearson...or some of the radicals.. I'd have about 5 different versions of "Aboriginality".

If Irf wants to speak about the positive.. he must be prepared to be shown the negative. Otherwise.. he is living in a kitchen too hot :)

Hows things anyway ? I'm snowed under with work for the present..can't breathe..

Boaz: you ask, why do we have to think of him as anything other than 'a bloke.'

My answer is simple - in a perfect world, we wouldn't. But unfortunately, in this world, many people like to point at muslims and claim they're all out to get us. Many people, you among them, make commentary that would indicate Islam is an enemy of the west.

In order to refute this, Irfan has made the point that Mr Ilham was a fine upstanding citizen and a muslim.
Irfan's ultimate point was simple - despite the protestations of many vocal anti-Islam people in the community, there are plenty of Islamic people who are 'just a bloke' as you eloquently put it.

If we don't point out that Islam has these people too, aren't we just caving in to the fundamentalists?

TRTL..... I suppose I'm too conditioned by Malaysia TV... they regularly have timeslots where they parade the latest 'Chinese' convert to Islam..and shower him with gifts..

But I don't recall any among us 'mozziewhackers' (as some put it,-in reality critics of "Islam" ) who have declared "All Muslims are evil" ... do you?

How many ranting, roasting, raving hateful anti Christian anti Christ type posts have you seen here? Remember West ? Alchemist? Kenny? I don't see any reason to say anything about 'so and so is a great person AND a Christian' (hint hint.. so Christianity is rather good actually)

If Irf had said "Doctor so and so, highly respected scientist becomes a Muslim" then its a different matter.. we would look at the reasons...evaluate them, and engage on the 'argument' level rather than the personal.

I don't know who Irfy is trying to persuade but I highly doubt that his words will have any impact on those who actually DO regard all Muslims in the same boat. About as much as telling a Hitler Youth member that "Einstein is a Jew..and thus Jews are ok"

You see..for every Einstein there is also a Marty Frankl who ripped off 1000s of people in insurance scams to support a kinky sex and extravagant 30 luxury car lifestyle. So it works both ways.

As soon as Irf says "Ilhan was a great bloke and a Muslim"... the anti Muslim brigade will mutter about some other toad.

On Ilhans "Islam".. I wonder if he ever borrowed money to expand his business ? and if he paid interest ? If so.. it would make him a 'bad muslim' technically, but just an ordinary bloke to the rest of us.

If he did ever pay interest you would have to add "unfaithful" to his 'Honesty/integrity/Generosity :) but then...that would not be such a good look would it ?

G'Day to you Boazy,

You said:
"Whyyyy do we have to see him as anything other than a 'bloke' ?"

That is the point that myself, Irfan and many other posters are trying to say.

If crazy john wasn't a good person, some media and nut bags would have included his faith and ethnicity everytime his name was mentioned. For an average normal people, Crazy John faith is an extra peace of information about the person and should not be used for or against him.

Have a good day,

Irfan’s article is not about Crazy John it is about Irfan. Exactly who is he trying to convince us or himself? We do not need to know that John Mustafa Ilhan was a Muslim – it should neither add nor subtract to the respect we accord him as a human being. We should all judge each other according to the way we are treated by each other. What a person believes is irrelevant. How they behave is the only thing that matters.

The purpose of the article is for Irfan to try and convince non-Muslims that most Muslims are good people. Since most non-Muslims already accept this we can only presume that the real point of the article is that Irfan is trying to convince himself that as a Muslim he too is a good person. This seems to be the point of most of his articles.

Irfan seems unable to accept the fact that some non-Muslims do not like Muslims. He interpolates from this that most non-Muslims do not like Muslims and therefore we have a big problem. He does not like this same interpolation applied to Muslims however.The statement that some Muslims are terrorists and therefore all Muslims are terrorists is just as illogical as the statement that some non-Muslims are ‘racist’ therefore all non-Muslims are ‘racist’.

“People across Australia are struggling to find words to express their shock at Ilhan's death. My humble suggestion is that they recite this simple verse from the Koran, whose equivalent can no doubt be found in the scriptures of other faiths also. Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajiun. From God we come, and to God is our return.”

Perhaps this is the real problem for Muslims – how do you deal with the harshness of life?
Do you let nature take its course and grieve appropriately or do you seek to alleviate your pain by drugging yourself with religion.

Most people knew of this man as the man behind 'Crazy Johns' that's all. His private life, ie his religion etc., were quite rightly private and we never knew about these things nor did we need to know.

He was a very successful businessman and seemed a lovely Australian (and yes, of Turkish background). He died unexpectedly and this was clearly very sad for those who knew and liked him.

That's it for the rest of us though, so crapping on about a religion is just more red herring guff in the margins of a piece of Australian business history.

Since the author and 1st commenter brought this all up, I think it is worth noting that it is precisely John Ilhan's "Australian-ness" that is worth emphasising. It allows other Australians to understand him and his success. 98.4% of Australians by the 2006 census are not muslim so it has no bearing on most of us.

The link below has nothing to do with such a well-mannered gentleman as John Ilhan who by all accounts treated his wife and female relatives as any civilised person should.

However, the link has everything to do with noting that it was not his Turkish-Muslim identity that made him famous or well liked throughout Australia. In fact, the story of the West today is that many (clearly not all) male Turks find it hard to settle in our societies despite the alleged modernity of Turkey. Remember Turkey is attempting to join the EU and yet it does not appear to offer the full range of European, Western civilised values as its social norm. Take Germany today, for example:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/29/international/i114652D02.DTL&tsp=1

Ro,

I think it was a little unfortunate that you mentioned Germany in this context.

After the war, Germany brought in cheap labour from Turkey to rebuild their country. Their descendants, although born on German soil, are still classified as "Guest Workers".
This has undoubtedly isolated them from mainstream society.

I knew Greeks and Italians who upheld the "old ways" from their countries of origin. Much later, on returning "home" they were shocked to find out that the "old ways" had well and truly gone, being replaced by modern societies. Many of their children had a hard time
breaking free of restrictions placed on them by their parents. However, there is certainly no evidence of any social differences between the later generations and the average anglo-aussie.

Irfan,

"And these people need to come out of the halal closet"

EXACTLY!

Unfortunately, we do not hear their voices loud enough (if at all) in protest of what some Muslim fundamentalist leaders come out with. If they were to challenge these people, the average Aussie would see Islam in a completely different light. Aussies argue loudly about the rights and wrongs of this party or other, or this denomination or other. We need to see the same occurring in the Muslim community. With virtual silence from Muslims, you can't really blame many Aussies for thinking that all Muslims are in tacit agreement, or are too cowered by their leaders to speak out.

Even you, Irfan, often come across as an apologist - instead of making a definite stance.

Yes, we have had Muslims here since the earliest days and they contributed greatly to this country. I imagine there are mosques dating back into the early 19th century. The descendants of these people are often prominent in the public eye. Like other religious groups in Australia, they regard themselves Aussie first and their religion personal. In fact, it might only be when they are dining and they don't eat pork or drink alcohol, that their religion is noted at all - just, given cursory recognition, and then forgotten. And indeed, their daughters, like other Aussie girls, wear bikinis on the beach.

Yes, death is a tragedy, but what about the other simple verses from the Koran preaching hate and violence against non-Muslims? Are we to ignore them?

These people don't represent the "real" Islam. The real Islam is what you get when Muslims dominate. When Muslims are a minority they play word games, deny the obvious and even lie about their religion and dear prophet.

Here are some more simple verses from Allahs book:
3.178: And let not those who disbelieve think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement.
4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
5.33: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

You would have to look are to find the equivalent of these hateful words in other religions.

See Irf, some people can read. I asked you three years ago to condemn the hate, murder, plunder, torture and rape done by your dear prophet, recorded in Islam's own scriptures. I have you links and references. Tell, when are Muslim going to be offended by the vile things Mohammad did?

Did you see the article today about the hate literature in British mosques?
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2767252.ece

Islam is a cult of hate, death and dishonesty.

Radical Muslim kill, moderates make excuses, lie and pretend the hate and violence has nothing to do with Islam.

Kactuz

Danielle, I agree with you about the reference to Germany and its history of gastarbeiters and I didn't mean to imply that such workers were not at a supreme disadvantage when coming to such a new, bewildering country and under such unstable entry conditions.

[Another more vivid example of that same phenomenon though might be the backwards Rif Valley Moroccans who have entered the Netherlands over the past few decades and have had such profound problems settling into a 21st western society. They, unlike earlier Dutch Indonesian immigrants et al. have had severe trouble fitting into Europe and are so rigid in their 'worldview' that it’s a huge social violence problem for the Dutch (yet also typical of the grossly illiterate.)]

Having a migrant for a father myself, I was only making the obvious point (as the PM did recently) that different migrants bring different worldviews and for all their conservatism, our Greeks, our Italians and many others were not only part of the West already, but their very cultures represented the ancient foundation of our own intellectual and legal system. So there were great similarities here already and we've seen them overcome personal barriers admirably. Plus unlike our little pet fanatics here, they never declared war on their own country (notwithstanding the actions of the homicidal fascists of Italy and Germany).

All countries have troubles dealing with immigrants - look at the Arab Middle East and the way it treats its Asian immigrants today - ghastly!

http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/08/17/slaves-of-the-twenty-first-century/

And if Germany was a poor example (of foreign integration), which it probably was, try instead the high domestic standards of the United Arab Emirates. Something to aspire to, non?

"Despite its shortfalls, the United Arab Emirates has combined Islamic values with best practices from the West to create "the MOST MODERN legal system among the Arab countries," said Salim Al Shaali, a former police officer and prosecutor who now practices criminal law."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/31/africa/dubai.php

Ro,

Thank you for the references; and you have made VERY valid points. Perhaps our embassies overseas should ensure that potential migrants are fully informed about our way of life, laws, and expectations. Those that would find our life-style too alien would at least be forewarned - and may look elsewhere.

Undoubtedly, many coming into our country receive a daunting culture shock, being extremely threatening and alienating. It is not right that people arrive here and throw up their hands in horror and alarm. This is where the problem lies.

I have been ambivalent about making new-comers learn English, as many may not be literate in their own language. I believe, however, that it should be an imperative, prior to arrival, for any person who is a community/religious leader. They cannot function effectively if they are not in contact, and in tune, with mainstream Australians.

Most people who intend to live in another country for a period, especially to settle, learn the language - at least at some level. In many cases, they learn to be fluent - to speak and read/write the language. This is one of the joys of living in a different country - and a necessary part of understanding the culture.

The requirement of being similarly fluent in English should be essential for those leading their communities and/or religious groups. This may go someway to bridging cultural issues between newcomers and average Australians.

It is extremely rude and distateful for a person to accept the hospitality of a country and live here; isolate themselves from the mainstream, and then disparage the country, especially on overseas media, in the way we have seen. Even more unfortunately, it reflects badly on the community they serve.

Knowing the great importance Muslims place on courtesy, many would have been appalled. It is disappointing that many didn't express this publicly.