I think that history will record the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 as one of the worst political blunders of that century - and that's saying something. To foist the collective guilt of the West over its anti-Semitism upon the Palestinian people by giving their territory away to foreign Jews, set in train the inevitable violence and repression that characterises what passes for civil life in Israel today.

Those who seek to justify this most momentous of world political blunders by reference to books of mythology, prophecies and so on, place themselves firmly in the same deranged camp as the Zionists who are responsible for this ongoing travesty. Those who seek to justify Israeli crimes against humanity in more pragmatic or secular terms reveal themselves as neo-conservatives, racists or simply ignorant bastards who blindly accept Zionist ideology.

The basket-case State of Israel does not "deserve our support". Our "support" is what perpetuates the immoral conflict in Palestine, and the sooner the West leaves the Zionists to their inevitable doom the better.

I am not going to try and deconstruct Karmi's lies, distortions and half-truths. I shall leave that to others more knowledgeable about the history of the region.

I am in a peculiar position. On balance my sympathies are with the Israelis but I confess to being a "Zio-sceptic." That is, I doubt the Zionist enterprise can succeed.

The greatest danger to Israel comes from growing Muslim political power in Europe. Take France as an example. The Muslim population of France is probably of the order of 10%. But if we consider the under-20 demographic the proportion that is Muslim rises to about 25%. In many cities more than half the schoolchildren are Muslims. All those younger French Muslims will be voting within a few years.

The next president of France, whoever he may be, will need at least some of the Muslim vote to get elected.

Similar comments apply to other European nations such as Netherlands and Germany. Parties that want to gain power will have to compete for the Muslim vote.

What will Muslims want in return for their vote?

One thing that unites Muslims is antipathy to Israel. They could demand a reduction of trade ties, a ban on overflight rights for aircraft going to or from Israel or baning people with Israelis stamps in their passports from entering the EU. All this would deal devastating blows to the Israeli economy and morale. Israel may find itself an isolated Jewish enclave stuck at the Eastern end of the Mediterranean.

To put it bluntly, I do not see how a Jewish State can survive in a region so dominated by Islam.

I have tried to discuss this with Jews. They generally dismiss me as either a crank or an antisemite. Nonetheless I cannot think of a greater danger facing Israel than the growing Muslim European vote.

Stephany, any chance of some references to support this claim:

>>The Muslim population of France is probably of the order of 10%. But if we consider the under-20 demographic the proportion that is Muslim rises to about 25%.<<

Presently some 26.4% of French people are under 20.

There are 63.7m people in France, therefore 16.8m are under 20

If 25% of these are Muslim, then there are 4.2m of them

So, if we accept your figure of 10% (which is at the high end of any estimates, by the way) then two thirds of French Muslims are under 20.

I very much doubt that this is the case.

If I didn't know you better, I'd say you were scaremongering.

One of my posts was removed because my use of the word holocaust was too gratuitous. It was too - fair cop!

I would like to share my story though.

When I was a kid we were pretty poor. War to me was just food rationing, and holes in the streets where houses used to be. I was spared the misery, fear and suffering that war and armed conflict visits upon the innocent.

One precious summer, our family scraped enough money together to go to Skegness for a few days. I was 8 years old and had never seen or touched the sea before. Along the beachfront, tucked among the entertainments was a Holocaust museum. I spent ages staring at the black and white pictures and the pathetic scraps and remnants on display. I visited it every day of the holiday.

I don't think they used the word holocaust then. It's probably a more modern term. When I pressed my mother for details, she would only say, "Never again, love". NeverAgainLove pretty well said it all. I understood that alright.

We had a copy of "The Scourge of the Swastika", by Lord Russell - so when we got home, I read that thing from cover to cover. I was a precocious reader even at that age, although with what comprehension I can't remember from this distance in time.

Although a childhood lesson, it was the plight of the Jewish people that served as my first introduction to human suffering. It has no doubt been a benchmark, both consciously and unconsciously ever since. I am sure I still use it as a benchmark for suffering masses everywhere, no matter their race or creed.

But I much prefer my mother's term. What's in a name? I can't help but think that had we had used NeverAgainLove instead of that word Holocaust, things might have panned out a little differently in the Middle East.

NeverAgainLove....!

Not anymore than any other nation!

I am sick to death of "poor" Israel and what Jews went though during the Nazi regime, honestly! The Russians lost many,many more people and you don't read or hear all the stories on a near daily basis!

Too, I know a few Jews and the are good people, just like any other group, good ,bad and the rest!

Jews control much of the worlds finances and much power in the USA, good on them, but don't expect me to feel any different to them because of all the "promotion" of Judism. Just people not "special" or the "chosen" few, just other Muts" like us all, in the scheme of things!

DEMOS, you are absolutely correct. Over time the region of Palestine will become secular. More people both in Israel and the surrounding lands (especially Lebanon) are increasing realising that conflicting religious laws and the strange religious/racial regulations are the main cause of the conflict.

However there are those, on both sides, who seek with violence to impose their theology - Hamas' desire to establish an "Islamic state" is one example. On the other side, there are those who take the biblical claim of "from the Brook of the Nile to the Euphrates" quite literally. Here is their land claim of what Israel should rule:

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/eimages/futurmap.gif

For the record, I fall into a camp which is best described as secular Zionism (along with Hannah Arendt and Noam Chomsky). The region of Palestine *is* the historical homeland of the Jewish faith.

Of course people of that religion should be allowed to settle there; and anywhere else for that matter. But there is a very important distinction between an open religious homeland and an exclusive religious State. The State of Israel (which is surely a wicked insult to Judiac orthodox interpretation) must be dismantled.

continues...