In the bible didn't God kill thousands of innocent babies in their mothers stomachs when he created the great flood.

How many innocent babies did the prophet Mohammed and his army kill when they waged war through towns and cities. You dont wage war without a lot of people dying.

If God or Allah is so against the deaths of babies why didnt he stop the deaths of all the innocent babies in the recent sunamis in Indonesia.

Personally I don't care about religion, the Vatican; what I am talking about here is what I have seen and experienced here in Australia.

1. Contraception is not expensive. A woman can have an Implanon rod implanted that will cover her for 3 years. The prescription will cost $20, the doctors visit bulk billed (especially if she is on some form of government benefit) and she doesn't need to remember to take a pill every day. I know, I used this after my first child was born and had it removed after 2 years to start trying with my current pregnancy.

2. Yes, when a couple is trying to get pregnant they do grieve a little with every period.

3. I have known several people who have had abortions. Two of the women in question had multiple abortions because they 'couldn't remember to take the pill every day' and their partner found sex with a condom on 'was like having a lollipop with the wrapper on'. The third was the result of a one night stand and the fourth was a result of her partner losing his job and not having the economic stability to afford a child. For the last lady their economic position improved and six months later they had a planned pregnancy.

In Australia there are too many people who see abortion as a form of contraception, and refuse to take personal responsibility when there are so many options available to them.

Another article and thread on abortion!

Good to see that this time there seem to be a few more women participating.

To me abortion should remain focussed on either of two issues:

1. Should abortion be legal and available in Australia to any woman who needs it? Yes. Abortion being legal does not mean that anybody must avail themselves of this if confronted with an unplanned pregnancy.

When a foetus becomes a person with equal rights or with a soul, if indeed there is even such a thing, is open to debate. There is little consensus on this. Even within religious thought.

2. Why do women have abortions?

The reasons would all be very personal. Some may regard another's reason as frivolous or selfish. An abortion is to prevent bringing a child in the world, a responsibility for which the woman feels herself incapable. By acknowledging the responsibility of parenthood she is condemned to be recast as being selfish.

The frivolous/selfish argument reeks of wanting to make a woman pay for her 'sins'. That may be well and good for some, but what of the child? When the anti-choice brigade have all put their hands up to help bring up children, so there is a waiting list to become a foster parent because of a shortage of children I'll listen to these arguments.

It is preferable to avoid abortions. Not because of any belief in a right of a foetus, but because an abortion is a surgical procedure with possible risks which are best avoided.

As Celivia has pointed out let's start with good comprehensive education for both girls AND boys. Women have the wombs, but not the sole responsibility of keeping it clear of contents. They need a willing partner.

For EVERY abortion undergone by a woman, condemned by some, there is also a man who got her into that predicament. I do not hear any condemnation of men complicit by the anti choice brigade. Women need to keep their legs crossed until married? Then men need to keep their pants on and zippers closed until married.

Meelamay, your comments are typical of another tactic used by the rigt-to-lifers. It's all about over-simplifying the issue of contraception and thereby casting blame and moral judgements upon these women, as if to say "If I can manage my contraception then why can't you?".

And yes, abortion is a form of birth control, but it's there as an option of last resort. I can assure you that women don't avoid contraception just to have an abortion. Again, it's another tactic used to degrade the women who's primary contraception failled.

On your point about Implanon, yes Implanon is effective but it's not suitable for everyone and it's not as cheap as you suggest. The Implanon costs about $30, then because the insertion is a minor procedure, you would be unlikely to find many GPs willing to bulk-bill for it's insertion

I find this discussion a little limited, as it fails to discuss the difficulties facing women who wish to have children, but are unable to bring their partner around to the idea. The current culture, which has an extremely high level of acceptance of contraception and abortion, means of course that many young men are reluctant to make a commitment to relationship. The result is that many young women are forced to wait many years until they are 'allowed' to have a child...if the partner is still there, that is. The outcome is skyrocketing rates of IVF, caused mostly by delayed partnering. Abortion is one thing, but the extremely rigid modern cultural attitudes surrounding marriage and children these days mean many women feel they must wait until their most fertile days are behind them. Discussions of abortion and contraception - indeed, of relationships - should incorporate consideration of this important aspect of female experience.

"A group of eight cells held together by the egg membrane is now a child!"

You got it in one.

I dare you to talk to IVF patients and tell them their 4 cell embryo on ice only has value when it's implanted.