TurnrightTurnleft

1) Are you opposed to all forms of contraception? Do you agree with their labelling of the pill as an abortifacient? No I am not opposes to all contraception. I think this is a personal choice for people unlike the murder of the innocent where the child has no say.

2) What of the fact that 90 per cent of abortions are in the first trimester? Do you still persist in calling these lumps of cells 'babies'? is a group of eight cells held together by a membrane a child? Renaming babies according to their stages in life does not make the crime any less.

3) What of cases of anencephaly? Would you accept abortion there? What about cases when the mother's life is in danger? At what point is the risk allowable for an abortion? 100 per cent? 99 per cent? This is a dishonest arguement as well over 90% of abortions are for convenience. I am happy to leave it to the mother if her life is at risk.

4) What about Sancho's point? If we found away to save the 25 to 50 per cent of fertilised ova spontaneously aborted? Would women then be forced to save these ova? Sanchos arrogance in the clay questioning the Potter is self explanatory. He/she shows a complete ignorance of God.

5) would you prefer a situation like the Phillipines in Australia? I am not familiar with the Phillipines situation.

Speaking of "obeying god" and not killing the fact of the matter is that, at least in the USA, those that are most adamantly opposed to abortion are almost, without exception, supporters of the so called "war on terror" and the Pentagon death/terror machine.

So too with thr "righteous" right wingers here in Oz.

George Bush lends his support to this anti-abortion campaign. Never mind that when he was governer of Texas he approved a record number of executions and as far as I know did not give a clemency or pardon to anyone.

This is all the more disturbing now that it is well known (or rather proved) that The USA justice system sucks, especially if you are brown skinned and/or poor. It always was known that this was the case. Going on the results of research done elsewhere in the USA a goodly number of George's victims would have been innocent.

Many USA anti-abortionists are also strong supporters of the death penalty.

So much for being pro-"life".

A quote from my favourite philosopher about how everyone that participates in or witnesses an execution ALWAYS gets brutalized at heart.

"To perform, or to watch, or even to condone capital punishment is, necessarily, to perform, watch, or condone murder, blood-lust, revenge-killing, evil intention, and heart-hegating purpose. Proof of this is in the fact that, virtually universally, ALL who perform, watch, or condone any kind of real human-to-human violence feels an unavoidable and unquenchable hurt in their hearts."

Femme Fatale Lyrics (abridged due to post length)
By Digable Planets

Nikki

Lookin some kind of sad with tears fallin from her eyes

She sat me down

And dug my frown and began to run it down

"you remember my boyfriend Sid that fly kid who I love

Well our love was often a verb and spontaneity has brought a third

But do to our youth an economic state we wish to terminate

About this we don't feel great , but baby that's how it is

But the feds have dissed me

(..) And the pro-lifers harrass me outside the clinic

And call me a murderer, now that's hate

So needless to say we're in a mental state of debate"

(..) Digging her somber mood

The fascists are some heavy dudes

They don't really give a damn about life

They just don't want a woman to

Control her body or have the right to choose

But baby that ain't nothin

They just want a male finger on the button

Because if you say war they will send them to die by the score

Aborting mission should be your volition

But if Souter and Thomas have their way

You'll be standing in line unable to get welfare while they're out

Hunting and fishing

It has always been around it will always have a niche

But they'll make it privilege not a right

Accessible only to the rich

Pro-lifers should dig themselves

Cause life doesn't stop after birth

And to a child borne to the unprepared

It might even just get worse

Supporters of the h-bomb and fire bombing clinic

What type of s**t is that? Orwellian in fact

If roe v wade was overturned would not the desire remain intact

Leaving young girls to risk their healths

(…) to botch (…) as they kill themselves

(…) I don't want to sound macabre

Isn't it my job

To lay it on the masses and get them off their ass*s

To fight against these fascists

So whatever you decide make that move with pride

Sid will be there (….)

And so will I

I think there is a key difference between contraception and abortion.

Obviously there can be no life to take if the sperm and egg have not joined. That's what contraception is. After they have joined, I believe human life has been created and thus has a right to protection from harm, just like all of us.

I recall reading the anti-choice submissions to the Senate Community Affairs Committee on the RU486 discussion. I frequently observed a high number were asserting that RU486 (and abortions in general) permitted "irresponsible" sexual behaviour of women and men and this was their reason for opposing the availablity of the drug. That is, the threat of pregancy should deter non-procreative sex and control or restrict sexual behaviour. Some of these people felt that this would impact on men and women alike but seemed to conveniently overlook the biological reality that even if he paying child support or not, a man can still walk away from a pregnancy and the pain of childbirth. Ergo, pregancy is to punish women -- and only women -- for *enjoying* sex.

This is, of course, from the same people that extoll the virtues of the miracle of creation, the joy of children and the usual predictable platitudes. If having a baby is so great, then why do they seek to have pregnancy serve as a tool of fear?

Of course, these people are entitled to their opinion.

Clearly they KNOW that abortion and birth control allows women to behave like men; to phuque with impunity and for their own gratification. Taking away women's access to controlling their reproductive destiny hands takes away women's independence.

This debate will become clearer when the compulsory natalists admit that the real reason they oppose abortion and birth control is because they are sexually insecure and are terrified by sexual competition. When women start to enjoy non-procreative sex this unleashes the horror that they may compare men's sexual prowess or inadequacies. It means that frigid women must contend with wanton jezebels. And the older anti-choicers are bitter that they missed out on all the sexual permissiveness now enjoyed by others. Misery loves company

This is a fantastic article, I agree with everything Mary Smith says.

I’ve just come out of another abortion discussion where I‘ve been questioning the anti-abortion brigade about its motives.
I came to the conclusion that saving “unborn babies” as they call them, is not the priority of this mob at all.
Control of sexual behaviour of people, especially of women, is on the top of their list, probably motivated by, as Yabby says, their obsession with world population.

They ignore that, despite the fact that women have always used abortion throughout history whether it was legal or not, we managed to increase world population to over 6 billion.
They also ignore that outlawing abortion only will result in a higher number of deaths amongst women due to dangerous backyard abortions.

I read somewhere that 75% of the anti-abortionists are men (may I add the obvious, 100% of them will never be pregnant).
I‘d gamble a nice pair of my shoes that the majority of these men are white Christian males.

Ho-Hum is correct about pleasure being taboo- that’s why the religious glorify suffering and/or martyrdom so much.

Because of all the violence they glorify and because banning condoms has been a major cause of the spread of AIDS especially in Africa, I stopped using the term “pro-life”. They are not pro-life at all, just pro-birth and as Oliver O also addressed, they don’t give a rat’s what happens to the mother and child after the birth.
I agree with Col that there are exceptions such as the Salvation Army.

Runner, if abortion is murder and should be illegal, what kind of punishment you think would fit the crime of abortion?

Steward, some contraception types (e.g. mini-pill and also IUDs) work by allowing fertilisation but making it impossible for the zygote to implant in the womb so that it will be disposed of in a natural manner during menstruation as if it hadn’t been fertilised.