Gerritt, your reasoning might not be based on religious grounds,
but you certainly seem to attack the topic with what seems to me
to be akin to what is called religious fervour.

You are quite dogmatic in whom you call a fool, how women or
men should behave etc. We have religious freaks, but we also
have control freaks, who want to control how others should
behave.

Thankfully much of the West has moved on from this narrow minded
world view. Today there are all sorts of people doing things for
their own reasons. The law is there to set the limits, not
to force people to live a certain way, based on narrow minded
dogma or opinions.

A woman will have an abortion for her own reasons. I would not
be so arrogant or judgemental to call her a fool, as I don't walk
in her shoes. Main thing is that she has all the options to think
about. Setting up so called "helplines" who don't provide for
that option, is clearly not what is required by these women, yet
it has been happening.

Just remember, that you are here, by sheer coincidence. Had your
mum had an extra cup of tea, some other little sperm of those
millions might have won the race, you would not be here. Thats
ok, some other indivdual similar to you, might have had a life.

Fact is, nature will always create far more potential beings of
a species, then can ever survive. Humanity is certainly not
threatened by too few human individuals, more like too many.
Without biodiversity on this planet, there won't be a humanity
to fuss over.

Listen folks, I might have a little break over the weekend. One against four (Gerrit and I aren't quite on the same wavelength) is a bit of challenge especially when my opponents are not all necessarily exactly same position, so if you're still up for it I might come back Monday

Nice to see you back Celivia. You say of me "you agreed that before birth, a foetus is not a person “I do think personhood is a post birth thing…”"

You are being a touch naughty here - go back to what I said. I did not speak of "a foetus" not being "a person" Foetus is your word, my expression is "unborn child" or "a human person in the making".

My use of personhood was probably clumsy - I think who I am as a person is really a product of what my parents gave me (unique DNA) plus interactions post birth, ie my environment(s) from the day I am born until the day I die. In other words in my thinking the kind of person I develop into is highly contingent upon my life's experience which is 99+% post birth. However, I may give more thought to this point.

crumpethead as to making prior child-care arrangement, etc;
When I grew up it was simply that in my family a woman when she became married she became a home-maker and no longer would work. It was not relevant if she did or didn’t have children. The husband was the breadwinner. As such there was no issue to get child care as mothers would themselves bring up their children and not leave it up to strangers. When I became married my wife stopped work. After she had the second child she wanted another but as it was placing her life at risk, according to medical advise I rather had a two children and a wife then perhaps three children an no wife. . However, ion my birthday in June 1975, while I was driving in traffic, my wife suddenly flipped out she was pregnancy. I was so shocked that I hit the brakes and a bus run in the back of me. Hardly something I would forget. I didn’t believe it and she made clear she expected it and had already made an appointment for me to speak to her doctor, the next day. The doctor advised me that the baby was due in December 1975, he explained that obviously something had gone wrong as my wife was pregnant, but he assured me that he would monitor my wife’s health. Well, my first born daughter was born in May 1976! Moment, that was 11 months after the doctor claimed my wife was then already 3 months pregnant! Simple, my wife and her doctor had conned me pretending my wife was pregnant and my wife knowing I would check it out had the doctor on her side. I had been set up by them. Then, after the daughter was born my wife then wanted her to go into childcare, the very girl she always wanted, because she wanted to earn moneys. Well, she could get a job from me and so went about my back via a superior and ended up working under me. She was working some 12-hours-a-day,

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but I for one never wanted any moneys from her nor it to be contributed to any household income, and as such my wife was earning moneys she was spending on her family. Working up to 12-hours-a-day, meaning that the daughter was mainly in childcare and the boys were after school by their grandmother or home alone. Finally I sacked her (as her work performance was not sufficient), and so she became a stay-home-mother but not having the monies to spend, I discovered after we split-up, that she had been borrowing monies left, right and centre as to continue to spend monies on-her-family. At that time, all I took a week was one dollar to buy lollies for the children and the rest of the monies I left to my wife to deal with. Being in management I earned a darn good income but was unaware my wife was buying items such as an electric dryer, etc for her mother and as such wasting a lot of money.
I never forced her to have children, as she was the driving force, yet, once the daughter was born she changed totally and wanted anything but to care for the children, but spend money on her family. While I personally would prefer a woman to be married when she has a child, however, I do recognise that the quality of care by a single mother may at time be far better then that a married woman may give, and as such on that aspect consider it foolish for a woman to abort a child merely because of a break-up with a sex partner. I do not oppose women to work, just that I view children should be a priority by a mother!
And, if the father desires to stay home instead I accept that in modern times this is an acceptable alternative. Just that too often both are working and no one to care for the children! And then people wonder why children grow up in crime.
At least I had a fultime-mother, one who was always there when we needed her!

Gerrit, I have no doubt that you’re a great support for your family, but the way you support your family is irrelevant to the situation that many women outside your family find themselves in. We cannot imply our own morals upon others.
Yes, family responsibilities have changed and that’s why I’d like to see the introduction of shared parental leave- both parents who choose to share the caring for their child will be able to do so while not losing their connection to the workplace- but this is a topic for a different debate.

Think about why it is that women seek abortions in countries where they have access only to unsafe, life-threatening backyard abortions. It’s like playing Russian roulette; nevertheless, women are so desperate to end their pregnancy that they are willing to risk their lives rather than give birth.

I’d say that the only people who are foolish are the people who think that they are able to assess a woman’s situation better than the woman herself and dictate what she should do; not the woman who is forced to make a choice between two evils: abortion or giving birth.
Don’t forget that they don’t want to make a decision at all; they simply have to.
The article that Johnny Rotten posted highlighted the fact that women are able to make their own decisions and I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I agree with you that it is wrong to push a woman into having an abortion if she doesn’t want one, but it’s just as wrong to push her into continuing a pregnancy she doesn’t want.

I’m glad that your daughter came to you for support, but it seems like your daughter wants support for a decision she already made: to continue her pregnancy.
What if your daughter had decided to have an abortion, would she have come to you also, or would she then have preferred to talk to someone else to find support for her abortion? She simply chose the person who would best back up her decision- you.

Celivia, suppose you had a son and he came to you and told you his girlfriend was pregnant and she was going to have the child. Suppose your son admits he is neither financially or emotionally capable of being a parent and wants her to have an abortion. What way out have you got planned for him?