I might suggest that everyone take a good hard look at David Palmer's last post, because this is where he really is. It appears that David would love everyone to have the same attitude to love an sex as he, however, we don't.

But to be very serious here David, you cannot legislate for moral behaviour, it just doesn't work. They tried that in the '20s with prohibition and look where that went.

You can have your attitude, I don't think it's wrong, but it isn't shared by a lot of the population, and that's what really upsets you isn't it?

Celivia refers to me as a “misogynist” (women hater) and crumpethead seems to argue why should a woman give up her career for an unwanted pregnancy if the boyfriend split.
Lets make it very clear, if a woman get pregnant then giving up her career has nothing to do with a boyfriend splitting or not as if this is the criteria then this would degrade a woman to using a pregnancy to try to keep a man and if she cannot then the unborn baby can be calculated killed off, is that what you pretend a woman stands for?
Lets make it clear that I did put everything on hold when my daughter was to be ordered into home, as simply I, so to say, dropped everything and cared for her since she was one year old!
I grew-up that men and woman are equal and neither are above the other in marriage.
In principle I take the position that a family should be a one-breadwinner family where if the woman “chooses” to have one or more children then she should not be forced or obligated to work in the workforce, as tending to the needs of children itself is a major task. Once the children grow up the woman (mother) should be entitled to enjoy family life without the need to go to work, however, if she desires to work then that is her option. It is regrettable that in current society women generally are forced to work and leave caring of children over to strangers.
While I do not accept that a woman is a better carer then a man, because circumstances dictate the level of care provided, it must be recognised that over the centuries many brilliant minds were arising and yes they were all cared for by their mothers! Anyone who were to argue that women are dumb and can only care for children simply hasn’t got a clue as to what childcare is about. I for one always have had and still have great respect for woman and the role they play in society.
continue...

I oppose any repression of women as certain cultures use.
However, the abortion issue is a total different issue and cannot be swiped under the carpet by labelling me to be a “misogymist” or whatever!
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I am one of those men who still open the car door for my wife and bring her a cup of coffee in bed. I respect women in an appropriate manner and as such the usage of “misogymist” is totally misconceived. It is sad that when a person cannot succeed in their ranting then they lower themselves in name calling as if this address the real issue which this tread is about and that is the abortion of so many unborn children.
If a woman can decide to abort, then why should a man not have the same right that the woman is forced to abort if he didn’t want her to conceive in the first place? Ample of men have been tricked into paternity they didn’t want. But, as I have always made clear, if you took the risk to play the game then you must accept the consequences. If this applies to men then equally this should apply to woman!
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I do not oppose “all” abortions, as I have all along accepted that in certain extreme medical circumstances it may be appropriate. Celivia and crumpethead simply seek to be like G. W. Bush, you are either with us or against us. I am neither!
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I cannot deny the very birth right to others I have enjoyed!
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I take the position that no woman should ever be forced to conceive, but once she takes part in a conduct that she conceives then whatever self-rights she had she must be accepted to have place second class to the right of the unborn child.
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Aborting children because they are not of the desired gender, underlines the gross-abuse of abortions and anyone who cannot understand this in my view lacks some education in what society is really about.
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Again, I cannot deny the very birth right to others I have enjoyed!

David, what I am is intolerant of the intolerant. Religious
fundamentalism looms as an ever larger problem in many
parts of the world, as they try to force others to live
by their agendas.

Nope, I cannot force my viewpoint on you,as we have freedom
of religion, for those who choose so. But we should also have
freedom from religion, for those who choose.

Now I am sure that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others
think that their holy books are the best. Society should be
able to cope with all, not religious tyranny by the majority.

So you are free not to have an abortion, free to wait until
you marry with sex, free to do whatever you please, I won't
object. Just not free to force me to do the same, because
of your holy book.

If you are interested in the neuroscience, the neocortex
is what is different in us humans, compared to other
species. The fundamentals of that are in place at around
week 25, so that would be the first time you could think
of calling a foetus a person. Thats when there is actually
what can be called a human brain, is finally in place.

The thing is, women have around 400 chances to create
another human. Clearly they can't all survive, so why not
just let women decide, when and how many they want to
spend the next 20 years taking care of.

You are free to fuss over those little zygotes, yet
clearly don't give a hoot about the millions of sperms
and ova that die every day. It makes no sense to me
as to why you draw your little line in the sand where
you do. Thats your business. We should not be forced
to live by it.

David,
Your Christian beliefs might be compelling reasons for yourself and other Christians not to have abortions so as not to conflict with your beliefs, however even in conservative Christian societies, it doesn't stop abortions from occuring. Christian women or couples still sneak away to have terminations in secret owing to the lack of support that they know they will receive from their family and friends.

(read "The only moral abortion is my abortion" http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html)

Despite everything that you morally believe in about abortion and your opposition to it, I can assure you that it is a different story when you are confronted with a real life issue that effects you personally, or your own family. Practicing Christians attend abortion clinics and tell the counsellor that "my case is different because... I'm not like those other girls.. " The reality is that their reasons for wanting an abortion ARE just like "those other girls".

Both yourself and Gerrit apear to be in a long term, stable and happily married situation. This does not place you in an ideal situation to know what women with unplanned pregnancies actually experience. Anyway, why is it always Christian males who are the most vocal in the anti-abortion debate?

Perhaps this thread has just about run its course.

Bugsy

I think you misunderstand me. I understand that while so many women unexpectantly fall pregnant without the support of her sexual partner and so long as a majority of the population consider abortion the lesser of two evils, then abortion will not be legislated against.

I am nevertheless saying that abortion is a great moral evil, we have far too many of them including ca 100 late term abortions each year; society in general and Parliaments in particular should focus on creating the conditions for reducing them, certainly not approving of them, which is precisely what decriminalisation of abortion does,

Crumpethead

Thank you for your post. I can assure you women are vocal in the pro life movement.

I accept your statement, “This does not place you in an ideal situation to know what women with unplanned pregnancies actually experience”.

Don Aitkin

I don’t think abortion is “more important than other kinds of ‘killing’”. The point is, we send killers to gaol for lengthy terms but we permit the abortion of 20,000 unborn children without so much as a rap over the knuckles. We (rightly) get stirred up over child abuse so long as the child has not escaped the womb. Total hypocrisy.

You say, “My preferred position is to educate everyone to accept sexuality and sexual behaviour as completely natural, and to guard against unplanned and unwanted pregnancies”.

I say that sexuality is a wonderful gift from God to be celebrated in the context of an exclusive life long union of love, companionship, help and support between a man and a woman. In other words, sexual behaviour does have some boundaries and is placed in a larger context. The basis of our civilisation is the family inaugurated as the Bible says when “a man shall leave his father and mother to be united with his wife and they shall become one flesh”.

The problem at present is that Western civilisation is dying and the most visible sign of that death is birth rates well below replacement levels.