Just read the nonse that even so called moderates like Irfan Usef write.In one breath he says Hirsi Ali is courageous person and in another she is an evil hypocryte who is only acting in her own self interest.Irfan frequently uses equivocation to justify the words and acts of the likes of Sheik Hilaly by pointing to Christian fundies.We either laugh at our fundies or ignore them and they are not prominate leaders in our community.

I measure Islam by it's silence when their extreme facists commit violent acts.All too often there is much silent approval and lies about Sept 11 and the Holocaust being a Jewish plot or a lie.

PaulL, No i can't see the difference between civilian deaths whatever the means, "sorry i didn't mean to kill your children" doesn't cut with me PaulL. How insignificant are the civilian deaths by coalition forces, US mercenaries and US special operation forces PaulL?. Then that Al Qaeda reference PaulL, that terrorist group (only in 'SH controlled' Iraq since the coaltion invasion) not sure where you're getting your info but my sources indicate that the atrocities committed by 'insurgents' have mainly been by iraqi nationals based on religous allegiance. Certainly the allies were guilty of terrorist atrocities, try the targeted civilian bombing of Japanese and German cities (the fire-bombing of Dresden and the atomic bombs Hiroshima/Nagasaki the most infamous). I must be "soft in the head" a civilian death no matter the excuse is inexcusable. As for civilians fleeing, try googling 'iraq civilian fled'.
The terrorism committed/supported by the zionist Israeli govt (grossly financed by the usa) is included. Why are the actions committed by the zionists any different/less atrocious than those of the UN/US claimed terrorist groups Hizb Allah or 'Hamas'.
The partial list of USA govt interventions was included to reinforce the argument that we, western whitey, isn't and haven't been innocent of atrocities/terrorism. No argument from me re. your partial list, i never claimed it was all us just we are also guilty
So no i have never wanted to or have "blame(d) someone else for all that?"
I apologise for the "you tool" and the 'left home' statements of my last post. I too am guilty of emotional exuberance, as for my opinions i read as widely as i'm able and avoid the western mega-media as much as possible for obvious reasons. I suggest you may have a one-eyed perception of reality yourself and just because i and many other readers/groups are 'left' of you and similar thinking groups doesn't make me/us left-wing from your position most positions would be 'left'. Regurgitating the neo-con hegomistic claptrap wont' get you a doctorate either. MarkC

Bushbred,

I see you have taken to waving your credentials around like a willy, Bravo.

Your attempt to portray the 1920 revolutionary brigade as a dominant force in Iraq is ridiculous. I think you’ll also find that they have been working with the Americans in their fight against AlQaeda. http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=1007727

The Guardian is the most biased left wing news paper in large circulation. It makes the BBC look like NAZIS. Using the Guardian as a source is like using Fox News as a source.

What value is there in pointing out the mustard gassing of Iraqis 100 years ago? Does that justify the acts of the Islamo-Fascists now? Are we to be judged on the acts of our great grandfathers? History has a role in understanding the conflict, but it doesn’t excuse anything.

If the Iraqis end up with a Democracy it will be thanks to the US because Saddam, Uday and Qusay, would have seen to it that Iraq was a brutal dictatorship for many decades to come.

Justoneperson,

It seems you think that war is terrorism. Dead is dead is it? So the driver of a car who accidentally runs over someone is as morally repugnant as a child rapists/murderer?

The atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, whilst regrettable, saved the lives of millions of Japanese as well as US and allied soldiers. It ended a war that had cost close to 50 million lives.

As for googling 'iraq civilian fled', this just proves my point. Sectarian violence in Iraq is what people are fleeing. http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/02/africa/web.0402civilians.php. The various Sunni and Shiite death squads are attempting to ethnically cleanse their areas. Al Qaeda are working with Sunni groups and are responsible for some of the worst acts of sectarian violence of the war.

By the way, my background is the humanities, so I am well versed in the leftist critiques of the west. I believed them myself when I was young and naïve. I've researched both sides of this debate and have come around to my current point of view after moving from university into the real world.

Justoneperson. So what if YOU can't see the difference between accidental casualties and deliberate ones! The Iraq war is not a theatre for you to display YOUR intellectual vanity; nor is it "all about you".

The Iraqi people have shown by their actions that they DO see the difference. This is indicated by the fact that barely 10-15% of the insurgents fighting/being killed in Iraq are locals. You might like to compare this figure to any other "foreign invasion/resistance" conflict. After that, could you explain why the Iraqis are not enraged by the murderous Invaders?

Should you come up with a reasonable explanation (which doesn't revolve around YOU being so much smarter than the Iraqis) I will give it serious thought. Cheers.

I am relieved to see ,in these posts, that people are now awake to the dangers that Australia and Australians could be facing. Tribalism has taken the part that was expected of Multiculture ,just as many of us predicted it would.
We were howled down and called a multitude of names for being politically incorrect.
Tribally based ghettoes have sprung up in our cities, shop signs are not printed in English and there are places where the Aussie does not go. Particularly the Australian girls, who have been classed as 'cat's meat' by a muslim leader.
For a while it seemed as if all the fuzzy wuzzy lovers of Multiculture were holding the ball,but the public are waking to the travesty of what MC has become. Better late than never.

Get real, Paull, you are just another one who still believes that the Americans are on the right track. It has become so very wrong as shown by the percentage of American people now against the Bush regime.

We have friends in America, where our youngest son graduated.
Where the Bush regime has made the mistake, however, is that it has never woken up to the fact, that such a powerful nation these days should not be acting like the Roman Empire, or even the British Empire.

Much more humility and Grace is needed, with wisdom and understanding as proven by Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

Things are changing, Paull, as truly shown by the joining together of the very Iraqis we thought were going to cause a Civil War if the Americans pulled out.

It is so interesting that what has brought it on has been the way the American military has acted during the occupation. As I mentioned earlier, too much the Roman way.

Finally, you elitist cultist corpo's could be very surprised how peaceful democracy could happen if the Yanks did the right thing. But with Cheney pulling the strings, you might still witness ten more years of occupation.

Very lowly cheers - B