Waleed Aly says that terrorism is ‘political’, but also says that the cancellation of a terror suspect’s bail by a legitimate, elected government is ‘political’.

A bit odd.

Seeing that Aly’s article is also political; the usual reaction of the usual suspects to anything the governments does is also political, and my comment is political, as are most opinions expressed on OLO, it is pretty damn silly to describe what the government has done in the case of the foreign doctor and terror suspect as political in an obviously derogatory way intended to bad mouth the government.

How on earth can terrorism, government action against terrorism and general opinion on terrorism be anything but political?

The government does, indeed, seem to have made something of a dog’s breakfast of the Haneef case. The AG, with his umming and ahing should have retired at the same time John Howard should have retired. I don't have a great deal of faith that the Government can protect Australia.

Nevertheless, Waleed Aly remains one of these ‘moderate’ Muslims who talks issue-dodging nonsense to take the heat off the real problem - Muslim terrorism.

On the frontspiece of the US Air War College Intelligence Library webpage, like a device on a shield, shine the immortal words of Marshall McLuhan:

"Only puny secrets need protection.
Big discoveries are protected by public incredulity."

So I have been turning the debacle of Dr Haneef over and over in my mind. Yes, the politicians are revealed as malevolent fantasists. Yes, the AFP are portrayed as blundering zealots. But is it all down to their own misadventures, or are they being deliberately led astray? If so, to what purpose?

The source of all this "secret" information comes from without. It comes from another country's sly-boys. The "information" can be calibrated to achieve a certain outcome, when the recipients of it are willing dupes of chimera such as The Great War On Terror. This has been done over and over in the past, in country after country screwed by US and UK corporate interests. Remember the scourge of Communism - magnified and horrorised by the very same crew who gave us Usama?

Now we face the ordeal of APEC Sydney in September, in which the Russian and Chinese leaders will be joined by the Commander-in-Chimp. The Security Industry together with it's invisible partner, The Secrecy and Concealment Industry, will quietly reap windfalls from the public purse:

http://www.americanintelligence.us/News/article/sid=4679.html

For a small investment of a red-herring or two, one may garner a very generous financial return. Aw, come on! It's just business. Neo-liberal Australia is a land of opportunity!

This is the logical outcome of Howard's politicisation and incentivisation of the public service and the national security services. But here's the kicker: the clever little chap only THOUGHT it was his idea! Zealots can be so stupid.

So wear your conspiracy badges with pride. One day they'll be worth something.

I remember a little man who may have had too much to drink that particular night saying "We will decide who comes here, and the circumstances under which they come."

Apparently this man allowed the doctor in, Howard is big on words, short on action to keep our boarders safe. Had he spend some of his surplus training Australian doctors in Australia so we would not have to import them, he would not have this current situation.

As it is I saw Vinny's on TV yesterday saying we have an alarming increase in poverty in this country, clearly when Howard said he would govern for "all of us" he meant "some of us" the big end of town.

Terrorism is indeed a political tool and is the physical response to a perceived political problem.

It is usually the only remaining practical alternative for some groups when meaningful negotiation has failed or is not possible.

It is not the real problem however - it is the symptom of another problem that it seems nobody wants to discuss.

To portray it as some sort of idealogical or religious struggle is just another way of avoiding the real issue.

As long as this is the case, it can never be eliminated or defeated.
It's always been with us in some form and historically, sometimes it even works.

As long as the politicians cause it, only they can stop it.

"Terrorism is the War of the Poor, War is the Terror of the Rich".

wobbles,
Indeed mate it certainly is. It's a war for the wealthy to remain on top of the poor. After all if we were sitting in a shack eating rice with fish waved over it for flavor and knew others in the world were starving while other were paying thousands of dollars to have their pets groomed it would probably raise the hair on the back of our necks also.

Howard doesn't discuss the "p" word because if someone does we will find that we have many of our our cases, and people may rebel and seek a fairer outcome, which would mean a shift in wealth from the mega-rich to the mega-poor in this country, totally against Liberal Party policy, and not really on the ALP's agenda either.

Waleed Ali and indeed any Islamist (not to mention a lawyer) should be read with caution.

Notice how he never mentions the common religious thread that is linking all acts of world terrorism.

Reading ‘between the lines” I could detect almost a sense of disappointment at the bungled terror attempts.

As all good Islamist Waleed puts the blame on our anti-terror system and laws, and takes no responsibility for the Islamic terrorist acts.

As head of the Islamic Council of Victoria – Waleed should be the last one to express concern about Islamic terrorism – since the prime role of ICV is promoting literatures that bluntly, and shamelessly promotes Jihad to our Australian Islamic youths.

Now we are being told that it is outrageous to criticise the federal police. (Let's take the next step down the well-worn path to a Malayasia-style managed democracy.) We must wait till the trial occurs.

And after the trial, no doubt we will be told that it is old news. If the man is deported on what we are now told is merely shadowy--meaning ambiguous-- evidence, no doubt questioning that evidence will be met with the same responses.

This is no way to allow our country to be run. It is imperative that we criticise the federal police.

I am, undoubtably naive, but I think of how others may have felt at a particular time:
I am in a nightclub at a popular holiday resort when bombs set by muslims go off and kill or wound all around me
I am dining at a restaurant at the same resort when a suicide muslim bomber sets off his bomb and kills or wounds all around me
I am at work in a tower when muslim hijackers drive a plane into my workplace killing thousands around me.
All the dead or wounded are innocent, they did no harm to anyone but the muslim killer does not care about that, he simply is obeying his need to kill...because he is muslim and that is what he has been taught to do.
So if my government overreacts to any perceived or unperceived threat to keep those killers away from me or mine, I am very glad.

Mickijo, there's an old racing chestnut which goes "Punters are normal people until they arrive at the track; then they remove their heads and replace them with pumpkins"

Thus is it with most "lefties" and apologists for murder at the behest of allah. They see a fleeing man, tossing aside his well-paid cushy job at a large Australian Hospital, hoping to escape on a flight to India, bearing a one-way ticket, having not bothered to inform anyone of this intention, indicating (to any normal person, not wearing a pumpkin instead of his/her head) an intention to not return

Coincidentally this person has a cousin who has just tried to murder dozens of people, using a device(a SIM card) of the same type as this fleeing person has recently given him. This escaping Doctor apparently did NOT leave his library Card; his gym membership, his Holiday Inn 2 for 1 voucher, nor his (4p off) discount petrol coupon for the 2nd Cuz to use. Nor a Fifty Pound note ("I won't be needing this in Australia Cuz"). Until he saw the burning 4WD at Glasgow Airport, this Doctor had also forgotten what a hurry he was in to see the birth of his child.

I won't go into the time I lent my high powered zoom video camera to MY cuz. "How was I to know he was part of a paedophile ring?" I asked the coppers as they drove me from the park next to the local school in my trenchcoat and attached trouser-legs. All circumstantial and a crazy mix-up! I was looking for pumpkins but there were no lefties in that patrol car...unfortunately. Cheers.

Wobbles - "It [terrorism] is usually the only remaining practical alternative for some groups when meaningful negotiation has failed or is not possible."

So what is your explanation of the terrorist attack on Australians in Bali? What was the failure in 'meaningful negotiation' that supposedly drove JI to murder?

Shonga - " ... sitting in a shack eating rice with fish ... knew others in the world were starving ..."

Would it occur to any of the starving people to blame their own corrupt governments and their own greedy ruling classes (who live in luxury while the people starve)? No, its easier to blame the West.

OK mickijo,

I am a 35 year-old Muslim man and I am ordered by Coalition troops to remove the body of my nine-year old son from the middle of the road at gunpoint - with a bucket and shovel- because he got in the way of an APC that was passing through moments earlier.

I am a Muslim woman who is searching for the missing head of her daughter who was hit by a stray missile while shopping in the local marketplace.

These were innocent people too. They are people first and Muslims second. Is this how we hope to win their hearts and minds?

mps would be smarter, if ozzies weren't so dim. it's the wildebeest-hyena equation: if the hyena runs too slow, he doesn't eat. if he runs too fast, he overeats and runs out of food.

pollies and mugs have a similar relationship. they're just smart enough to get your vote, not so smart as to be able to talk over your head and make you nervous.

Paragraphs 6 & 7 indicates his ignorance of the law and also shows that he is truly indoctrinated in the ways of the non Muslim members of the legal profession in Australia.
HANEEF is not being tried for anything as he has not been committed to stand trial under the Qld Justices Act 1886 by the Magistrate and the Bench Charge Sheet, that was lodged in the Registry with the Clerk of the Court, would not have even been signed by any Police Officer, State and Federal, this is how we do it now is the reasons given by the member of the legal profession who is appointed and proudly sitting at the Bench as a Magistrate.
If the decision to cancel the visa by the Minister is found to be an unreasonable-exercise-of-power by the Federal Court on the ground that the Minister had no evidence before him to provide the reasonable grounds, has the Minister committed an offence ?
There is nothing judicial about the process at all other that three officers of the Court (Lawyers) arguing about what should happen to the victim of the blatant abuse of power by the Federal Minister, State and Federal Police who have very little or no evidence before the alleged court exercising judicial power. In their alleged affidavit, the Police Officer JABBOUR RAMZI claims, and it appears that he intended it to be Sworn on Oath, that the sim card was a firearm, or an offensive weapon, or an explosive substance and that it was used or threatened to be used in the commission of the offence with which the defendant is charged including in the Officer's opinion he would endanger the safety and welfare of the public if released on bail.
What a pile of utter vile garbage and this is the same sick legal-system that all Queenslanders have to try and survive under. It is a legal system created by the members of the legal profession for the financial benefit of those same members because they are the only one making any money out of this shameful exercise.

If the secular humanist had not got their way on multi culturalism as we know it we would not be having this discussion.

How refreshing Waleed, calling it in a pretty even-handed fashion. However, while these laws are necessary at present, I fear the politicians who use them - they have been in office for far too long.

What is it with "Winning Hearts and Minds" Rache? If it were just about who has the best PR, the whole Iraq War could've been handed over to an advertising agency right from the start. Reality is that a lot of Iraqis will adjust their "hatreds" according to how the war turns out. Once the Coalition has won, the unfortunate families of "collateral damage" victims will forget it. If the coalition leaves with the job not done, the victims will have no other option but to blame the coalition. That's how it always is in war.

Will bystanders become insurgents because of these accidents? Maybe, but what effect does it have on these very same bystanders when they read of the latest random mass-slaughter due to these insurgents, half an hour after witnessing the APC accident or off-course missile?

Thinking of France in 1944 or Italy at the fall of Mussolini, it seems the locals were not tempted to join the fascists (locals) running the country when the allies arrived, despite many civilians being inadvertantly killed by them (the allies). In fact, even in Iraq, arent about 90% of the insurgents FOREIGNERS anyway? Maybe I'm wrong; this last almost certainly shows that the hearts and minds of the Iraqis have ALREADY been won by the coalition. Cheers.

dee,
As I recall, the Bali bombing was in retaliation for the attack on Afghanistan.

It's also interesting that this attack on Afghanistan was announced by Colin Powell during his visit to Sydney several weeks prior to the 911 attack, and was recorded in the Sydney Morning Herald at the time.

The underlying reason behind all of this is centred on the historical treatment of Palestinians plus the support for despotic regimes in the Middle East by the USA and the ongoing presence of their military bases in Saudi Arabia since the first gulf war, as well as the perceived betrayal of the Afghanis by the USA after their war with the USSR.(They promised to help them rebuild if they fought the Russians on their behalf but opted out after the war was won. When the cold war ended, they had no further use for all the "soldiers" they had trained and are fighting them now as a result).

The effects of the economic sanctions against Iraq and the exploitation of oil resources also appears to be a factor.

It's easier to blame it all on a handful of religious fanatics and divert attention from these other issues.

punter57 -I think this is a conflict that will span generations and the resentment will last long after the coalition leaves (if ever).
Remember it was the West who helped put Saddam into power and kept him there all those years while it suited our purposes. We even helped his Republican Guard put down a rebellion after Desert Storm because Bush Snr preferred a military coup over a popular uprising by the people. Many died then too.

It's not just the accidental killing of bystanders during the last few years but the half-a-million or so who died as a result of those sanctions. (OK it was Saddam who was withholding the medicines but the West knew it was happening all that time and did nothing. We even bribed him to buy our wheat and some of his smuggled oil probably made its way into our bowsers too.)

I think you'll find any foreign insurgents are there to fight the Coalition forces but most of the violence is home-grown with even their own police taking part in sectarian violence and murder.

It's a huge mess no matter what we do, but we will have to wear a lot of the blame.

For heaven's sake what is wrong with people like 57? There are tens of thousands on nuclear bombs out there pointed all over the face and we yawn about them.

A young doctor tried to save a cousin a few dollars while he studied medicine 12,000 miles away and gave him a phone card and is called a terrorist.

We have slaughtered almost 1 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq in the name of the non-existent war on terror yet we whine on and on about a few hundred white people being killed.

Just today Australian soldiers mowed down an Afghan in his own town and will claim that it is OK because he didn't stop and they will never realise that as the invaders and occupiers they are the terrorists.

geez, marilyn, didn't you see the sign at the door: "terrorists bad! ozzies good!"

Yeah Demo I did."One of the pressures that I haven't spoken about publicly is that one of the investigators dropped dead in the investigation room Monday last week, so the investigation team has been through a very emotional and stressful time," he said.

The investigation into Indian-trained Dr Haneef will be reviewed by the commonwealth Director of Public Public Prosecution (DPP).

Mr Keelty said this should not be taken out of context and the AFP had acted on the advice of the DPP from day one.

But I find this statement from Keelty that the feds were taking advice from the DPP instead of the other way around to add to the claims that they are the keystone kops.

Why was the DPP even interfering let alone giving advice when that would nullify his "case".

And demo. In Iraq and Afghanistan the Ozzies are the terrorists aren't they and we sure have terrorised Dr Haneef.

Marilyn,
Rednecks like 57 are reading from a military bible, they have blinkered vision on war. My Dad who served with honor in WW11 told me something of the horror of war. In his words if politicians or politicians families had to go to the front line, war would be a thing of the past.

We are led by the nose by the USA and do what they say it seems, we have no independence on foreign policy, we just do what we are told. John Curtain was the last PM to take an independent Australian stand, we need allies but we don't need to lose our own identity.

This is another Vietnam, I say bring our men and women of the ADF home until such time as we face a real threat.

Wobbles. Can you give us a link or an approximate date for the Colin Powell announcement you refer to above; I'm genuinely interested.

Marilyn. I suspect you are not on the level. You are possibly a prankster or stirrer; surely "play-acting" a caricature of the classic hysterical lefty. How otherwise to explain fluffing your lines so blatently, when, after claiming to feel for the Iraqis and Afghanis, you refer to the "few hundred white people" killed. Since we all know that Iraqis/Afghanis are white too, then this "slur" could not possibly be for real. The correct line is "a few hundred westerners" or "a few hundred little Eichmanns", but, as even the finest actor can forget the script once in a while, I'll forgive you.

SHONGA. Same for you as Marilyn; saying silly things hoping to stir the pot,eh? OK, here's a good one; my dad was a bushfireman who faced the horrors of the 1939 Victorian Inferno. He reckoned that if politicians and their families had to go to the firefronts, bushfires would be a thing of the past. Looks like BOTH our dads were knuckleheads!

As you know ,all the Coalition troops are volunteers. They "enjoy" the adventure in the same way that mountain climbers enjoy the adventure/danger; in the same way plenty of people drive "dangerously"; they are not "sent" to the horror; they desire to do their duty and are not desiring a Ruddy-type to cuddle them and "help". Most are not afraid (in the standard lefty sense of being timid/weak individuals unable to stand up and be counted). Cheers again....redneck 57 out.

WOBBLY....

you mentioned that Bali was 'retaliation' for the invasion of Afghanistan.
1/ Would you please inform us of how many 'Afghans' were involved in the Bali bombing ?

2/ If there were none, then what was the 'connection' between the Bali Bombers and Afghanistan ?

3/ When you answer 2 as it can only be answered, does that not cause you some concerns about certain people in Australia who might share the views of the Bali bombers toward us ? (and are in our midst)

PS.. your views on the Gospels and Jesus are very strange mate... woefully unsupported by the actual evidence.

MARILYN... welcome back :)

1. Why do so many of ou assume that the only choices are the laws we have, and accepting terrorism? It is not a view held by the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Security and Intelligence, nor by the Australian Law Reform Commission. Neither the UK nor even the USA ignore rights to the extent that our Government does.

2. If the police really still believe that every thing is in order in the Haneef case except for the extraordinary invention of role of the SIM card, then there is someting gravely wrong with their investigations, and we should be afraid that their next mistakes will lead to a real terrorist not being investigated.

If the laws in Australia are letting yet another "suspect" roam our streets, what chance do we have when it comes to win the war on terror - go attack yet another country perhaps?

Unless our government find the guts to admit that the direct connection to world terrorism is ISLAM itself, all our efforts are but expensive and futile.

We are fighting the wrong war, with the wrong tools.

All the military successes (dismentelling a few training camps) mean nothing against the real enemy of civilisation : the ideologies of Islam. It (war) reinforces Islam's resolve to "correct" the West of our foolishness... bringing us to the right path under "Allah".

We are allowing the terrorist mentality to prosper in our Mosques, and islamic schools - then we act surprised when it manifests itself in acts of terrorism.

The real war should be directed against the destructive forces within Islam. We must continue to expose their evil teachings to the world - and especially to the followers of Islam.

punter57,
Now you're just being plain "silly" war and fire have nothing in common except for the fact that people start them. We understand that our troops are trained for warfare and they see it as their duty, and we appreciate having them in their role.

What we don't appreciate is an ultra right wing government putting them in harms way in a political war, another Vietnam, a war that cannot be won. My Dad was a brilliant man, I can't speak for yours. The reality is that Iraq so wanted democracy that they have taken the opportunity to have a civil war with our troops increasing vunerable.

Patriotism is one thing foolish ideology another, much like war and fire really.

The Haneef case is a political witch hunt, a frame up in any sense of the word. This case contains the whole devious ideology of the so called "war on terror." A week after a judge dismissed the case on the flimsiest evidence, now the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions has admitted "serious mistakes" and dispensed the "terrorist" case against Mohamed Haneef. Some 500 police and legal eagles were assigned and tasked with a brief to obtain or juice up any evidence that could sustain a “terrorist” charge.
As well, the doctor’s lawyers, spilled the beans by publicly releasing the transcript of a police interview, which showed that the prosecution had misled the court by making serious false allegations against Haneef. To boost Howards plummeting electoral fortunes and justify somehow Howards "war on terror" Howard wanted an innocent man jailed for well over a decade under highest detention security, in effect, throwing away his life and career. It is not that the politicians are dumb on terror but it is their right wing political agenda underway. Terrorist scares are repeatedly whipped up to justify trampling over basic legal and democratic rights. Hicks too was just such a case in point. It took Howard and scores of legal eagles 5years after the fact to cook up some charge that would hold up.

Punter57,
Sorry about the delay but the direct SMH original link to my reference seems to have disappeared - like this one(a copy of the original)
http://www.wanttoknow.info/011031smhbinladenkidneys

However there a still a couple of references to the same topic here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm

and here
http://9-11congress.netfirms.com/Vidal.html

which has a reference here -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4264545,00.html
(which seems interesting compared to the first link)

Also at -
"India Reacts," (June 26) reports that India, Iran, and Russia were talking with American officials, (Powell) about "plans for ‘limited military action’ against the Taliban if the contemplated tough new economic sanctions don't bend Afghanistan's fundamentalist regime."

As of October, 2001, the U.S. administration began admitting that they’re not after Bin Laden, so much as they want to get rid of the Taliban; then they’re suddenly willing to include Taliban "moderates", (who were previously only worthy of "no negotiations") in a new, [U.S. controlled] Afghani coalition, (Washington Times, October 9, 2001)

BD,
As for the history of the Gospels, there were originally between 25 and 30 variations. Eventually all but 4 were dropped as they did not fit the intended story, including those of St Barnabas and Peter, Mark and Thomas which all cast a different light on modern teachings.
The authorship of at least John and Luke was decided by Bishop Irenaeus, not by evidence
As for John, some of the stories (eg The famous John 7:53-8:11) appear to have been mysteriously inserted into the text from the earliest versions. Likewise,"the term "Son of God" was originally "Son of Man".
Overall, it is more a political document than a historical one and has been used as such ever since.
Where's your evidence to the contrary?

WOBBLES
1/ I'll refer you to higher authority on the gospels.

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm

But HEY... you only responded to my PS... NOT to my main contention, which is very important in terms of this debate.

HOW MANY "Afghans" were invovled in the Bali Bombing ?

You did report that it was "retalliation for the Australians in Afghanistan"

Was it retalliation by 'Afghans' ? or...who? this is a most important issue.
cheers
BD