Liza Hopkins

Thank you for this. OLO is not noted for such nuanced discussion of identity, especially of Muslim youth. So thank you for this contributuion.

On OLO, many posters follow the lead of the popular media and do construct a singular, hybrid category of Muslims without any regard to what you describe as "the complex mixture of affiliations, networks and personal relationships" that develop in Australia. Many posters continue to position Muslims - as you put it - as the “other” or the “enemy within”. Unhappily, no amount of evidence to the contrary seems to allay the paranoia.

Mind you, when the boot is on the other foot and 'Australian' culture and identity is being discussed, many posters fail to see the importance of nuance in describing Australia's cultural complexity in what some call the mainstream. So we hear much of 'Australian core culture' as if all 'real Australians' follow them faithfully - as if there's one single identity to which all 'newcomers' should subscribe, like the rest of us.

Most attempts to define this core culture result in cliches and triteness and amount to nothing more than chest-beating about their presumed superior virtues.

Liza, thank you; this article is very much needed.

Australian attitudes to "other races" are influenced heavily by what is reported by the media.
This reporting is often the work of just one journalist, and the outcome is that this single person's ideas are circulated widely.

Because it appears in mass media, the masses accept it as fact.

That journalist either may be highly knowledgeable about the topic, or encountering it for the first time.
In the latter case, it is probable that the writer will report in the simplest of terms within the constraints of a limited understanding, resulting in the "dumbing down" of readers or audiences.
He/she could also be aping others.

The quest for simpicity often sees a heavy use of cliches to overcome a reluctance to think, analyse, understand.

"Muslim-Australian" is a handy label, particularly for the xenophobic.
How often would they use descriptors such as "Irish-Anglo", "coloured",
"Protestant motorist"?

It's about time that we stopped putting religious labels on groups unless it is germain.
Race and religion are separate.

It is not ‘public discourse’ which has positioned Muslims as the other or the enemy within, as the author suggests, but rather Muslims themselves.

All Australians should be Australian first. Whatever other identity or belief they choose is secondary to that: personal and nothing to do with anyone but them.

Any “examination of the mainstream media” shows that the media is out of control, presuming to know what most Australians think and believe, when it/they are merely projecting their own beliefs and trying to influence public opinion, or worse.

There is no need for Muslims to be any different from Australians of other faiths or no faiths. Country and nationality should always be the main identity if there is to be peace and cooperation.

Sadly, Muslims - or at least the mouthy ones we always hear from – don’t seem to believe this. And yes, for the nitpickers, there are other groups who do the same, but we are talking about Muslims here.

It’s that simple. But, as usual, we have an academic trying to make the subject mysterious and ‘complex’.

Ah! Leigh - clearly a man who does not suffer fools gladly - what does a media "in control " look like is what I want to know -

I doubt - despite any form of analysis - we will get a clear picture of what a muslim in Austrlia looks like or in fact thinks - as , I humbly suggest, their socialisation has been disorted by inordinate amounts of pressure on the community by those who subscribe to the islam=terror equation - about as intelligent as the all fish swim there fore all that swim are fish logic of some of our more polemic journos -

Cowardly and ill advised reaction by governments including ours - and on going direct and unjustifeid vilification of muslims by Costello, Abbot and that putz Nelson engender hatred and or withdrawal - it will be either fight or flight - has contributed to what might well be a self fulfilling prophesy about some muslima - all that clap trap about "our" shared values - it is interests that dominate the common ground not values - we threw them out years ago -

I only hope I live long enough to see the tension that will grow out of the fact that the only nations that are breeding fast enough to replace themselves are those of the sub saharan regions and the middle east - that will be a test for the OECD nations - (Overfed Elitist Complacent Dunderheads)that wil test our values - our sense of a fair go and whatever other rhetoric we choose to cling to

Leigh's faith in "country and nationality" as the pathway to "peace and cooperation" is touching.

That is what ultra-nationalists have always liked to claim in their speeches. Nation for them is a transcendent entity which ends all wars and suffuses all humanity with its benficence.

It's magical thinking, and thus is immune to evidence or reason.

The corpses produced by all the wars of "country and nationality": the Napoleonic wars, World Wars I & 2, the Irish troubles, Yugoslavia, Iran/Iraq war: the intra-national slaughters carried out in the name of "country and nationality" in Suharto's Indonesia, Mao's China, Stalin's USSR, Castro's Cuba, Pinochet's Chile, Saddam's Iraq: the separatist terrorist slaughters carried out in the name of "country and nationality" by ETA & the IRA are all magicked away in the comforting fantasies of ultra-nationalists.

This article by Liza Hopkins is a ‘must read’ for those who want to capture the zeitgeist of the 1990s. Liza, the caravan has moved on. While you were scratching around in north-east Turkey one of your colleagues was busy torturing our language with her own application of deconstruction. Psychologist Marilyn Bowman came to the conclusion that “each personal, particular and subjective interpretation of an event, a text or an observation, is considered equally valid”. Dr Bowman seems to be granting tacit approval to those who have negative views of Islam and muslims.

Thanks Sneekepeete and Mercurius. It's always good to be sniped at by you. It means I'm still on the right track.

Sniping!!?? Leigh - Most people (excluding me) would take kindly to be described as a fellow who doesnt suffer fools gladly - I on the other hand dont suffer those who dont suffer fools

- and as for the media I am serious when I ask what are the parameters of a media out of control and what does a media "in control" look like - in control of what ? or in control of whom?

While I am convinced that their are many good muslim people in Australia it does not change the fact that the prophet Mohammed was not a nice person and would be gaoled in any civilised world today. It is easy to defend the teachings and example of Christ but impossible to do the same for Mohammed.

I for one see my loyalties first to Christ knowing that my nation, family and friends benefit by me becoming more like Him. The same could not be said of Mohammed

Runner

I believe your comments represent what is the true danger to national security.

The use of Turkish Muslims as an example of those "whose Muslim identity is subordinate to national, cultural and ethnic affiliations" could not have had much worse timing:

Kemalism: 1881 - 2007, RIP
http://abandonskip.blogspot.com/2007/07/kemalism-1881-2007-rip.html

Liberal Islam = Turkish Suicide
http://abandonskip.blogspot.com/2007/07/liberal-islam-turkish-suicide.html

Fitzgerald: Ataturk's legacy
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017495.php

the Turkey Paradox
http://squalidshoebox.blogspot.com/

This text by Liza Chamberlain Hopkins is one banality after another.

Quote: "Using the Internet ...circumvents the bias in western mainstream media against Islam"

So Muslim can tap into the Islamic bias back home against the West. Perhaps Liza should learn about the violence preached against the West in mosques throughout Islamic world.

Quote: "Islam itself is seen as a threat to the Australian way of life. This is reflected in ...the preponderance of stories relating to negative portrayals of Muslims."

Perhaps this has to do with the things Muslims do that cause this "negative portrayals." Is she saying we shouldnt talk about these things? We shouldnt consider Islam a threat? Just because its intolerant and violent? There wouldnt be so many negative portrayals if Muslims didn't do so many negative things.

Dr Hopkins nuanced and meaningful discourse about social identities, which constructs a singular, hybrid and spurious link relative to the interaction between a homogenised category defined by a diversified hyphenated identity and bounded groups of individuals in complex interpersonal, multicultural relationships, provides a critical analysis of mainstream stereotypes that simplify complexity - or complexify simplicity - I can't figure out which, but its ok as long as you use cute words and I am going to puke...

This lady can't keep her facts coherent. She says stereotypes are unwarrented, but then admits this discourse is "actively resisted by at least some of those people to which it has been ascribed." So only a few dont fit the stereotype?

Liza, Muslims values are not Western values. They love a man that murdered, tortured, plundered, enslaved and raped. The Quran is full of violence. Speaking of Turkey, do you remember the brutal torture of 3 Christians recently?
Mohammad tortured, Muslim torture. They did it for Islam. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html
I havent forgotten.

The fact is that once majority, Muslims have no respect for others:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3630860.stm
any excuse is enough to protest, kill.

Muslims come to the west and bring their hate with them. Instead of cute, 2 cent words, why not be honest and stand up for equality and human rights?

kactuz

But wait, there's more fine examples of subordinate Turkish Muslims:

Islam taking root in Turkey's bureaucracy
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/29/news/turkey.php?page=1

Judge shot dead in Turkish ban on headscarves
http://abandonskip.blogspot.com/2007/05/judge-shot-dead-in-turkish-ban-on.html

Turkey is more Islamophobic than the West (although secularists are a dying breed there now). Why? They've been there, done sharia. You would have thought they'd be smart enough not to want to go back, but it seems they're just as dumb as the West - now letting Islam spread unfettered until it takes over.

Is there such a thing as an Australian Muslim?

Answer: NO.

There are Muslims co-existing in Australia.

The article fails to describe what Islam really means to a true Muslim. A Muslim cannot become "secular" without abandoning his/her ‘Islamicity’. Every aspect of existence revolves around and is derived from the ‘sunnah’ and the 'shari'a', i.e. the religion itself.

They can enjoy the footy, and even appear at the odd bbq; but religion is their TOTAL uncompromisable way of life that does NOT include “the other” Australian way of life.

So because “they” cannot accept “US” – they seek to change “US” to conform to their narrow way of life. The process is called Da’wa or invitation (to Islam).

So who is stereotyping whom here

Coach, Runner, and other Islamophobics,

You just don't get to define 'others'.

It's extraordinarily arrogant of you to think you can be judge and jury to others.

What a disturbing representation of the ugly racist undertones in Australia.

Scary stuff! I'd hate someone to define me as an Australian based on the comments made by the rednecks in the crowd.

Liza,

Did anybody mention race above? Maybe Liz thinks "Islam" is a racial category?

No we are not judge and jury. Just our own private 'judges' exercizing our right to have opinions. Are you against freedom of speech? Evidently so! (it appears that this phd-plus individual has no concept of individual rights - and doest know the difference between 'race' and 'religion').

To be Australian, or liberal or of the West means to stand up for equality and human rights. It means that the same rules apply to everybody everywhere.

Muslims in Australia, in case you have not noticed, walk the streets, hold jobs, drive cars, wear blankets, build mosques, vote, worship Allah, and even preach hate. This is their right. Now do you care to know about how non-Muslims are treated in Islamic societies? You know but don't care.

Muslims in Australia pretend that what Muslims do in other societies has nothing to do withthem, or Islam. They pretend that Islam is about love and tolerance when the Quran, hadith and their actions say otherwise. This is morally repulsive and intellectually dishonest, yet it is what they - and you - accept.

To tell the truth about Islam and its dear prophet isnt hate or racism. It is an opinion based on facts. It is history - Islam's own history. It is current events.

Things are going to get worse because people like you don't care about truth or human rights, only feelings and meaningless, fancy words.

Tell me, Liza, have you ever read the hadiths? How about Tabari or Kathir? Do you think the actions of Islam's prophet are morally acceptable as narrated in hundreds of accounts? I am talking murder, persecution, enslavement, torture, plunder, rape and Mohammad even beating his wife... Yes, these are ugly, simple words, so they are not your style, I guess.

Oh yes, if you talk about these things Muslims and the PC Multiculturalist establishment that fund your work will no longer pat you on the back and say the sweet things you like to hear - so screw the suffering masses!

Kactuz

LIZ
the danger of your statement:

[It's extraordinarily arrogant of you to think you can be judge and jury to others.
What a disturbing representation of the ugly racist undertones in Australia.]

is this.... in the same way as you are charging the 'Islamophobics' of being racist this and that.. (i.e. you are lumping them all in one bucket), you are also lumping all Muslims in the same bucket.

Your choice is to lump them in a 'good/friendly/peaceful' bucket.

Just as there are extremes in Aussie society, there are extremes in the Islamic camp. What some are pointing out, is what they feel underpins those extremes, they are saying that this body of information, when taken up by the extremists, is dangerous for us.

Just as we need to be careful not to call 'Australians' racist for the actions of a few, we also need to avoid minimizing the danger of extremists whether they be Marxist rent-a-crowd, Abortion clinic bombers, or Islamists.

Kactuz is pointing you to certain information, which I doubt you have read. I strongly urge you to do so, and bring yourself up to speed on this. At least then you will be critical from an informed perspective rather than an uninformed doctrinal one that you are currently espousing.

The point you seem to miss, is that if I'd had a meeting with the likes of Sheikh Benbrika (who will not stand for the magistrate in the courtroom) rather than the friendly FH yesterday, the outcome of our time may have been less warm than it was.
Not all Muslims are friendly or peaceful, just like not all Australians are. Learn to differentiate.

More "subordinate" Muslims of Turkish origin, this time in Germany:

"Germany's Integration Summit Clouded by Turkish Boycott

11.07.2007

Upset by the government's recent changes to the immigration law, four leading Turkish groups are boycotting an integration summit ...

A summit meant to ease the lives of Germany's estimated 15 million immigrants hit a major hurdle when four Turkish groups representing a chunk of the foreign population threatened to withdraw from talks this week with Chancellor Angela Merkel's government.

The groups, who were part of the first such integration summit held last year, say they feel hurt and discriminated against by the government's recent changes to a 2005 immigration law which tightens restrictions on foreign spouses joining their non-German partners in Germany ...

Turks make up the largest group among the country's 6.7 million foreigners. But Turkish groups are irked that the regulation only applies to non-Germans."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2678315,00.html

Are the Turkish Muslims in Germany also the victims of an inaccurate media stereotype?. Are there Lebanese in Germany giving Muslims a bad name? Please explain why Turkish immigrants in Germany with such "fierce historic commitment to national secularism" need an integration summit in the first place.

It is noted that Turkish Muslims in Australia do not have a profile for trouble like the Lebanese. Nonetheless, there are genuine, rational, fears of all Muslims - Germany and Turkey demonstrate this. If you're into nuance and subtlety, you might see this.

Kactuz

You wrote:

‘ Do you think the actions of Islam's prophet are morally acceptable ... I am talking murder, persecution, enslavement, torture, plunder, rape and Mohammad even beating his wife... ‘

Again, you don't get to define Muslims.

I doubt very much that modern-day Australian Muslims pillage, rape, and plunder, as Ancient Muslims did. Nor should they be defined by what happened during that period of Ancient history or by what happens in Muslim countries overseas

Modern-day non-Muslims Australians are not defined by their pillaging, raping, plundering ancestors of Ancient times. Nor should we be defined by what happens in Christian countries overseas.

Possibly Kactuz, if a DNA sample was taken from you, there might just be a strand that matches DNA of middle-eastern ancient forebears, as the delightful Pauline Hanson was shocked to find out recently. Does this make Pauline Hanson a pillaging, raping, plundering Muslim OR a pillaging, raping, plundering Christian?

Boaz-David

You wrote:

‘ in the same way as you are charging the 'Islamophobics' of being racist this and that.. (i.e. you are lumping them all in one bucket), you are also lumping all Muslims in the same bucket…Your choice is to lump them in a 'good/friendly/peaceful' bucket.’

That’s not what I’ve said at all. That’s what you’ve said I said.

I happen to agree with the content of the rest of your post. However, the difference is my concern with posters obsessed with fanatical Muslims, who are not a concern here in Australia, whilst seemingly unconcerned with fanatical Christians.

The real danger for Australia at the moment are the people obsessed with Muslim ‘terrorists’.

They have made Australia an unsafe place for our Muslim Citiizens. A Muslim Women’s association has reported that Muslim women are harassed and abused frequently in Australia, particularly when the media beat up a story on ‘terrorism’. They have learnt not to leave their houses until the frenzy has subsided slightly.

So Kactuz, Muslims are not safe to ‘walk the street’ here in Australia.

Liz
What utter rubbish.
There are no shortage of Muslim ladies up here and I actually mix and work with these people.
Nobody has had any trouble what so ever. Just the other day the ladies were saying how nice and friendly the Aussies are to them
Dream on.
People like you cause trouble where there is none Liz.
The Mosque up here always invites everybody to BBQs.
To be REALLY honest with you there has been trouble with some of the Muslim youth picking on our young girls walking to the beach but thats all.
As a result the Muslim Leader has resonded and sorted them out quickly

Please stick to facts in future Liz.

Export

Go back and read my posts.

You'll find that you're opinion is the same as mine, and that I was defending the Muslim community from Kactuz and Boaz David who were demonising them.

Moonbat: Oz Turkish Muslims are different
http://abandonskip.blogspot.com/2007/07/moonbat-oz-turkish-muslims-are.html

"... kudos to young aussie Turks for having minds of their own. They perhaps don't deserve the stereotype for crime and violence that other Muslim groups have created for them.

However, as Turkey is in the process of throwing out Kemalism, it shows that Oz Turkish Muslims offer us no protection against creeping Islamisation. You have taken a small Muslim sample here in Australia, and extrapolated ... that their descendants will likewise be harmless. If Turkey can teach us anything, it is that moderate Muslims can be the forerunner for radicals, whether they intend it or not.

It is ironic that the moment you attribute Turkey’s "fierce historic commitment to national secularism" to aussie Turks, is the moment it is being extinguished in Turkey. You failed to explain why this won't be repeated here in Australia."

Seyit Gives Turkey-Slap to Secularists
http://abandonskip.blogspot.com/2007/08/seyit-gives-turkey-slap-to-secularists.html

"Here is a fine example of that "different breed" of Muslim, the Aussie-Turk. Kuranda Seyit gleefully rubs his hands together as he waves goodbye to secular Turkey ..."

Seyit defies Dr Liza Hopkins' view that Aussie-Turk Muslims are harmless. Seyit gives the finger to the secularists in Turkey, and by inference, secularists in Australia. Seyit climaxes by contradicting Hopkin's claim that Aussie Turks reject the Islamist "global community of believers" with the triumphant exclamation:

"We are witnessing the global phenomenon of an Islamic resurgence."

Aussie-Turkish Muslims may not have the profile for crime and violence, but they offer no protection against creeping Islamisation. And some, like Kuranda Seyit, actively work for it.

All Muslims are a threat to secular democracies. That, along with terror and violence, is why all Muslim immigration should be halted now.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22115590-2703,00.html

"Turkish voters head to the polls, July 23, 2007

Ataturk would be horrified," said Nur Serter, a designer-clad professor of economics and "secularist" parliamentary candidate for the opposition Republican People's party . She reeled off a long list of Islamist violations of the Ataturk code.

"Women are being advised to check with the imam if it is all right for them to have cosmetic surgery or get a divorce," she said.

"The Education Ministry is filled with people from religious backgrounds."

According to Necla Arat, a retired philosophy professor and another female champion of the CHP, young girls are even being left to drown at sea because male lifeguards are forbidden by the Islamic code from handling them in any rescue attempt.

"In some municipalities run by the AKP," she complained, "we have started to see 'women only' parks and 'women only' swimming pools." ...

Erdogan is reputed to have said that democracy was "like a train which you get off when you reach your destination" -- an utterance often trotted out by opponents who suspect him of wanting to impose an Islamic state."

Turkey voted to return Erdogan's Islamist AK party the other day. So beware of all Muslims, including the Oz Turkish variety. Like Ataturk, Australia will be horrifed one day if Muslims continue to outbreed us and slowly strangle secularism. One day you will wake up, like Turkey, and find it has gone.

More moderate Muslims of Turkish origin. This time in France ...

Islamic holiday camp shut down in France
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=58&story_id=42212

"NANCY, France, July 24, 2007 (AFP) - An Islamic holiday camp in the Vosges mountains in eastern France has been shut down due to concerns children were being subjected to a punishing religious routine, officials said Tuesday.

The camp, organised by a Turkish group from the city of Nancy, was ordered to close because of "overly present cultural practices," according to an administrative official in the town of Epinal.

"We had information allowing us to believe that children were being physically threatened," said local youth and sports official Frederic Roussel" ...

A probe was opened early this month after a child called the local police to complain of "physical constraints" at the camp, such as being forced to wake up at night to pray.

The subsequent inquiry found the camp environment "excessively rigorous, verging on disciplinarian", focused on the "intensive and compulsory practice of Turkish religion and culture" and lacking in other educational or leisure activities, according to court documents."

"Subordinate, Non-Stereotypical" Turkish-Muslim Alert:

"Fritz Gelowicz, 28, is in police custody, charged with leading a plot that, had it succeeded, could have surpassed the London bombings in its toll. That he is German and a youthful convert to Islam has only made it harder for his countrymen to grasp the accusation against him ... Fritz Gelowicz found Islam as a teenager. Investigators say a German friend of Turkish descent named Tolga Durbin introduced Gelowicz to a radical form of Islam." 8/9/07
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/from-fritz-to-adbullah-conversion-shocks-germans/2007/09/07/1188783495046.html

"BERLIN - Three militants from an Islamic group linked to al-Qaida were planning "imminent" bomb attacks against Americans in Germany when an elite anti-terrorist unit raided their small-town hideout after months of intense surveillance, officials said Wednesday.

The men — two German converts to Islam and a Turkish citizen who prosecutors said shared a "profound hatred of U.S. citizens" — allegedly obtained military-style detonators and enough chemicals to make bombs more powerful than those that killed 191 commuters in Madrid in 2004 and 52 in London in 2005." 5/9/07
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_re_eu/germany_terror

Or how about this guy: he busted the stereotype for 34 years as a Turkish immigrant in Germany. And then, please explain, what went wrong Dr Liza? Dear God, his daughter fell for a German, so "let's kill him":

"Turkish-born Muharrem E. spent 34 years living the life of a respectable German in Munich. He was employed, raised his children and owned a condominium. Then his daughter fell in love with a German. The Turkish family kidnapped the boy, turning their story into a lesson about the limits of integration." 23/8/07
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,501646,00.html

continued ...

Turkish connection in foiled plot unsettles Germans

"FRANKFURT: As Germans struggle to make sense of the terrorist plot foiled this week, they are learning that their good Muslims - the large Turkish immigrant population here - may not all be so good.

One of the three militants arrested Tuesday and accused of planning major bomb attacks against American and German targets is a Turkish man who lives in Germany, and security officials said Friday that three, and possibly more, of the suspects still being sought are of Turkish origin.

The Turkish dimension of the plot has shaken Germans, who have long taken comfort in the belief that their Muslim population, predominantly Turkish, was less prone to terrorism, or even radical Islamic ideas, than Muslim minorities in Britain, France and other European countries ...

There are, in fact, 2.7 million people of Turkish descent in Germany ...

The trouble is that established Turkish groups - which have close links to the Turkish state and were founded in the early years of immigration - are not attractive to third- and fourth-generation immigrants." 7/9/07

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/07/business/turks.php

I can hear Dr Raphael Israeli's words ringing clearly: when the Muslim population gets to 10%, you have problems. So whilst most Aussie Muslim Turks may be harmless now, by 3rd of 4th generation Dr Liza's myopic argument goes out the window.

Wake up Australia. In the long-term a growing Muslim population is dangerous, even of Turkish origin.

online_east

Irish terrorists have been known to strike fear into the hearts of Englanders (often with financial backing from their Irish brethren in the USA). And there are huge and growing numbers of people of Irish descent in Australia.

On your argument, while these Irish-Australians may be harmless now, we should be fearful of them some time in the future. A world-wide Catholic conspiracy perhaps?

As you say: Wake up Australia.