This was a really good article.

There are only a few things I'd comment on, although I completely agree with basically everything the writer has stated.

I wonder if the author of the report stating there would be around 3000 potential jihadists in south western Sydney alone, Mustafa Karim Ali, will be labelled an Islamophobe?

One of the major problems we face is that although non-Muslims have been saying similar things for years, they are labelled fear-mongers, for reporting on such facts.

I think all would have to agree that if there are 3000 potential jihadists, there must be a sea they swim in of those with lesser sentiment. It is this I think we haven't even begun to face, that is, the extreme xenophobia, racism, we see spewing forth from the Muslim community in general.

Tanveer Ahmed has admitted anti-western sentiment, racism, and hatred of 'white sluts' were prominent themes when he was growing up. I believe this general sentiment also made it possible for Australia to witness it's first ever racially motivated pack rapes - although the Islamic community have brought with them a large number of 'never before seen' crimes.

I would also add that when people are shocked that the recent Muslim terrorists are doctors, they see it from a western viewpoint. Other cultures/religions have vastly different ethics to us, one would imagine that would be clear now but some refuse to acknowledge this reality.

Non-western values are barbaric, backward, cold, and sometimes evil.

Operation Pendennis was met with fury by Muslim leaders I recall, again, showing that the bulk of Muslims view such would-be killers as heroes for the Islamic cause.

On isolation, the writer surely is referring to Muslims self-imposed isolation out of their belief Muslims are superior to dirty kufr. This explains why the good folk at Cronulla were abused, spat at, told to get out of the rockpools - so the angry young Muslim males could have their burqa clad wives swim uncontaminated.

Think about how vile their racism is!

Muslims have no place in western democracies. They should stay in the Muslim states where they can practice their religion free of western contamination. They will be free to rape anyone not under a burqha and carry out honour killings without censure.
It is about time they were held up to ridicule, the half cooked doctor in Glasgow opening gas cylinders in the back of his burning vehicle while he is being hosed down is more of a clown than Muslim assassin. The mufti who ran away from the red mosque in Islamabad under a burqha with the women should feel a little embarrassed.

...continued from above...

On the use of internet technology, I think it's disgusting that Muslim radicals use our western inventions to bring about their desire to impose backward Arabian values.

Don't they feel hypocritical? Living in the west, using our tolerance - something Islam believes is dhimmitude.

I mentioned that such extremists can only pop up due to a sea of racist sentiment in the Muslim community, which manifests itself in numerous ways - welfare fraud, rorting Christian charities, as well as Muslim thugs bashing Anglo's for sport.

Not to mention racially motivated pack rapes.

Although it is impossible to stamp out such bigotry as it is an inherent part of Abrab culture - backed up by Islamic values that deem non-Muslims as 'inferiors', we have to do something for our streets are no-go zones in some places.

The new Mufti won't condemn Bin Laden. Where are the protests you ask?

There will be none for likely all but half a dozen Muslims support such sentiment, again, showing their inherent xenophobia.

This is why they have arranged marriages. Any culture that engages in that practice is at it's core racist.

Great article.

Now the rednecks have had their go let's get back to reality. Bridges are best built from both sides of the river. The religious aspects of this issue really are a furfee and the sooner we get past that the closer we will be to solving the problem.

It is well past the time when our immigration laws need revision. The rules for citizenship also need to be turned right around. Anyone coming to live in Australia should sign a contract that they will adhere strictly to AUSTRALIAN law and if they breach that law they are to be deported without appeal.
Immigrants should not be chosen from any country where the rule of the gun has been the only rule. Hatreds and the lust for power has been ingrained into many ethnic people, we do not need them and their hatreds here. Keep them out for the sake of all the Australian populace.
The expense of keeping these extremists under surveillence will be an ongoing one because they will never add anything to our country but hate and disorder.We do not need them.

With all due respect to the authors, this article completely misses the point.

The point is that Muslim's who are attracted to terrorism, by whatever means, are motivated by normal human responses to stimulus. The bulk of Australian society, your average aussie, has been dispossed of his/her normal response to stimulus - decades of political correctness gone mad have seen to that. Any genuine reaction risks labelling as 'red neck', 'racist' or whatever the latest epithet happens to be.

Last week a Scottish baggage handler spoke for the dispossessed when he said, "We are not having that here."

I do not advocate a violent reaction, but for God's sake let's stop wringing our hands and trying to see the other side's point of view.

Let's display a little attitude!

Am I in a time warp or something? This item, or it's main intent, has been posted here a number of times.

We know Muslims aren't going to "dob" on their own so we shouldn't hold our breath until their community does something about the radicals.

Someone below wrote the West has no place for Islam. Change that to religion and I'll agree. If we have Christians then all should have their beliefs. In my world, beliefs are private when it comes to spirituality. Talk to your God, just don't include anyone else, particularly me, in your conversations. It's just the same as being trapped in a lift with the young exec using two mobile phones. If it was me and him the mobiles would find new uses.

Same with religion. Keep it to yourself. Just look at the damage trying to convert others causes.

As to those"moderate Muslims" who have no guts. Just sit there until you are living in a replica of Beirut. Then maybe you'll say "Why didn't we do something"?

Benji ! The estimates of 3000 potential jihadists is laughable - thats 10% of the entire Australian Muslim population - ( see sneekeepete larfing - mmwahahahahah )

It exceeds by a long fatwa the exstimate of even Mick Keelty of the AFP.

And as for this - this too is risable -

"On the use of internet technology, I think it's disgusting that Muslim radicals use our western inventions to bring about their desire to impose backward Arabian values".

Surely you are making like a catheter and taking the piss!

If we except that the internet essentially is a mathematically based form of technology - it was nations of the east (read probably those pesky muslims) that pioneered contemporary mathematics, signs and symbols - I may stand to be corrected but be warned I might also be sitting down.

And you think this -..."welfare fraud, rorting Christian charities" is the sole domain of Islam - I dont think so.

I think Muslim leaders should speak out - but I dont blame them if they dont.

I'm more worried about Bikie gangs.

Oh wait, they're not Muslim.

Sorry guys.

One of the best ways to free Muslims from the stranglehold of Islam is to let thinking ex-Muslims expose the superstitious and violent nature of Islam. Ex-Muslims are those who “had been there before” and they speak with authority about what Islam really is, and their assessment of the Islamic debacle is accurate and trustworthy.

A website setup by ex-Muslims has a good article, “Islamic Circus: Classification of Muslims by Sher Khan.” He identified 4 types of Muslims: Real Muslims, Modern Muslim Scholars, Half-Muslims and Mini-Muslims

Of the modern-Muslim scholar he wrote, “…Modern Muslim scholars are trying to reform Islam and represent Islam as a peaceful religion. It's a great news and their effort should be commended except for the hidden agenda that they nurture.”

Sher Khan concluded…

“Good news is majority of Muslims are either Half-Muslims or Mini-Muslims. Naturally they are not a direct threat to mankind as opposed to Real Muslims and Hypocrite Muslim scholars. Bad news is Saudi Arabia and Middle-East countries are pumping billions of petro-dollars to promote real Islam through Madrasas (Islamic School) and feeding hypocrite scholars. Hypocrite scholars create an innocent image of Islam to keep half and mini Muslims under Islamic flag. Mullahs take next step to brainwash this people and convert them to Real Muslims. Can you imagine of all Muslims of this world becoming Real Muslims? We are talking about a billion active suicide bombers! Ain't that scary?

To give a happy ending, the activity of emerging ex-Muslims must be mentioned. This group of people is not blind or blindfolded. They see the whole elephant. In fact they see Islam as a devastating wild elephant. This movement is getting momentum everyday and a surprising snowball effect is not too far.”
http://islam-watch.org/SherKhan/Islamic-Circus-Classification-of-Muslims.htm

Here, again, there is the assumption of the ‘moderate’ Muslim. There is no way the word ‘moderate’ can be applied in any discussion on such a bizarre religion/political movement and its adherents.

Most young Muslims ARE participating in Australian society and traveling very well thank you very much. I don't think that there's too much evidence to the contrary.

Of course there are some violent Muslim nutcases who choose to belong to sects like HT. However, HT devotees and their ilk (ie brainwashed morons) happen to be a distinct minority. I don't think that we should forget this important fact.

Hopefully, in time, the Islamic religion will be secularised like modern Christianity and violent religious nutcases and associated brainwashed morons will be a thing of the past. With a bit of luck we could be soon living in the tail end of the 'Age of Monotheism' and won't have to put up with monotheistic chauvenism too much longer.

Quote: That's why we need Muslim community leaders to speak out clearly against anyone spreading hatred.

Does that include the Quran and Mohammad himself?

So you see why this "speak out" or "condemn" concept by Islamic leaders is a waste of time. It is hypocrisy. It is basically like condemning concentration camps and saying that Hitler was a good person.

The Quran is filled with calls for hate and violence against non-Muslims. It gets worse... The traditions (the ahadith) of Islam's tell hundreds of stories of raids, plunder, murder, persecution, enslavement and rape by Mohammad and his men. Yet he is considered as great moral example. That explains that, I think.

Try and find a Muslim that wants to talk about these things. They are either in denial or dishonest. They want to pretend that these do not exist, or if they do, they have nothing to do with Islam Our PC and multiculturalist leaders don't want to talk about these things either, so not to hurt Muslim feelings.

This is why these things happen, again and again, time after time - and nothing changes. You cannot be for Mohammad and against terror.

Kactuz

Kaktuz,

Doesn't it occur to you that there might be two sides to the story?
If the 'version' you were fed is true why the Quran teachings are good?

I quote non-muslim impeccable philosophers and historians:

1. Lamartine, History of Turkey, 1854, vol-2, page 276-277:

“if greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Mohammed?...His forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death: all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not…Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of idea, restorer of national dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire. That is Mohammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness maybe measured, we may well ask: is there any man greater than he?

2. Thomas Carlyle (1840), writes:
And then also Islam-that we must submit to God; that our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever he does to us, the thing he sends to us, even if death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God." Carlyle answers the question of Goethe and says "Yes, all of us that have any moral life, we all live so. This is yet the highest wisdom that heaven has revealed to our earth."
http://www.thomascarlyle.com/us/1776/0803250304/On_Heroes_Hero-Worship_and_the_Heroic_in_History

Its enough proof that the world’s most known peaceful religious practice is Sufi (Mystic) Islam followed by one fifth of the muslim world.

Peace as always,

SNEEKEPETE,

I don't think those are Benjamin's figures, they're one of the Muslim youth leaders, and although Mick Keelty has come out to say those figures are over the top,

You sound like you're shocked that even 10% of Muslims would be jihadists. Aren't you aware of the countless polls in the UK, some from leftist groups even - that all have a figure of about 55% for Muslims who think 7/7 was acceptable, and about 70% of which want Sharia in Britain, and the UK under Islamic rule?

Come on mate, we're dealing with a whole community of xenophobic bigots.

Your in denial.

It's interesting that no one called that Muslim youth leader an Islamophobe isn't it, given we all know that would have happened if it was a non-Muslim who said such a thing?

STRAYAN,

You're more worried about bikie gangs? That is insane, as even the police task forces and bikie experts say they make up no more than 30% of organised crime, with the other 70% being ethnic organised crime, i.e; Asian triads, Muslim thugs, etc.

You sound like those who think we have more of a problem with white supremacist groups that we do with ethnic gangs!

Again, even the experts, one of which I saw on a Current Affairs program once, Martin Something-Something (hyphenated surname, worked out of some University, and who devoted most of his time to this cause) admitted that there were less than 500 members of such white groups and they impact on our lives 0%.

That is, they don't bash non-whites, rob their stores, steal ATM's, have car-rebirthing rackets, and so on.

Sorry mate, you are way, way off track with this.

KACTUZ,

Your insightful. I couldn't have put it better myself. I often have arguments with people who say Islam is reformable, or we shouldn't say it is Islam - just a hijacking of it, to which I always respond:

'But that is like saying that one can be allowed to wear a nazi uniform, prey to hitler, but if they don't actually commit any violence themselves they should be accepted! that is insane!

It's always refreshing to hear one of insight on this forum, for there are so many people here who can't see past their ignorance of Islam, they think all religions are like Christianity.

We aren't even 1/1000 of where we need to be, most of us are so ignorant.

Don't such ppl wonder why 'moderates' only attack non-Muslims when they say things I do about Islam? Where is the protest to remove the old bigot from Melbourne, their new racist mufti?

Anyone? Anyone? And Muslims wonder why they cop stares in the street? If it even happens that is! because they hang out in packs, likely would get assaulted for it.

Oh, and anyone wondering about my name, as some leftist f.... have already on this site, with their (white warlock? white wizard? grand wizard perhaps? rubbish) I call myself this because we live in a time not unlike the witch hunting days in medieval times, where anyone who went against the established religious order (which is the 'left' today with their culural relativism garbage and multiculturalism - sorry, I will never accept FGM or apostasy or honour killings etc.) was branded a witch, or if male, a warlock.

I add the white in their because that is like a double crime, to be white is to be looked at as evil, can't work that one out given it was whites who stopped slavery, set up the great countries everyone wants to live in, and have the best values - built on the european enlightenment of course.

But that is why anyway.

A little off-topic, but still relevant to the discussion. I came across an article about "Islam and the Problem of Rationality."

The author, Poole, discusses the arbitrary nature of Islamic philosophy (Allah wills!) and how this irrationality has led to a rejection of science, free will and even ethics. He says:

Quote: "... Because there are no objective standards of good or evil, even with Allah, the only resort to maintain ethics is shari'a; and as-Sanusi makes clear, there is no role at all for rationality in ethics. Ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328), the favorite medieval theologian of Wahhabis and jihadists alike, contended that there was no role or ability for man to understand Allah; man's sole response was to obey shari'a, making any use of rational faculties irrelevant. This is why the reinstitution of shari'a is so critical to the current Islamist project - there are no other alternatives except a complete reconstruction of Islam itself.

... The reality is that none of these values - human rights, basic freedoms, rule of law, or democracy - actually exists anywhere in the Muslim world to the degree that they are practiced in or are recognizable to the West, nor are they identifiable in the 1,400 years of Islamic history."

End of quotes. As people here may have noticed, for years I have been calling attention to the contradictions between 1. what Muslims say about islam and 2. what they do and what their scriptures say.

On one hand we hear from Muslims that Islam means peace, that it is wonderful and that Mohammad was a 'mercy for all mankind'. In reality the Quran and hadiths are full of violence and hate, and Mohammad killed, murdered, enslaved, plundered, raped, etc...

What goes? To us in the West, this is nonsense, and irrational. To Muslims it is because it is and Allah says so and end of discussion and lets not talk about this or if you do we will have to kill you.

Read the whole thing:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/islam_and_the_problem_of_ratio.html

Kactuz

What is so worrying about posts like that of Kenny is that he appears not to "get it". Muslims have been welcomed into Australia (or Holland,Sweden,Spain,Britain etc etc etc), given sanctuary from the hellholes they were fleeing; been offerred free schooling and all the rest...and yet too many continue to show nothing but ingratitude. Too many continue to believe they are "better" than the infidels and to demonstrate this continuously through their actions. The "bridge" Kenny alludes to HAS been begun from our side,and it is now time for the bridge builders on the other side to get cracking.
When I read of a fundamentalist Christian attacking an abortion clinic; bashing a gay toilet loiterer; burning some sinners house, I can imagine that somewhere in the Bible there would be some kind of "justification". However, despite being anti-abortion and anti-gay myself (not Homophobic please note; I don't fear them...I'm more Homoscornful) I would not applaud these actions, nor silently accept them, nor pretend that Paradise awaits any fool who decides that bashing, killing or whatever, is another way of Honouring God. Somehow I also suspect you would not find many Christian Clergy preaching the righteousness of such acts either. Contrast this to the long tolerated and inane mumblings of Sheik Hilally, the SUPREME Mufti, and delve into the utterances of his "more moderate" successor, to spot the difference.
So, that's it. The Muslim Community has had it's chance. It really is a case of "last call gentlemen. Time everyone. Time to go" Cheers.

I am tryin to remember at which school age I did learn that 3000 of 300,000 is 1% and not 10%.
Even if, the report, as I read it does not state whether these youth are pursuing Orthodoxy Islam (ie self improvement Jihad) or the militant Jihad.
Anyhow, trying to reason with the lynch mob is as easy as teaching a fish how to bicycle.

Kaktuzy,

A simple clear question:

How many nutty jihadists are there? 10, 20, 100 thousands?

How many Mystic/ sufi Muslims are there? 150, 180, 200 Millions?

So if an average person with no baggage or prejudice wants to make a call on Islam. Which one do you think is more reflective: the 0.1 % or the 18-20%?
Get the grey cells working..:)

Peace as always,

If there are only 3000 nutty Jihadis in Australia, then you would imagine there are many more "non-nuts" to help dissuade them from their path. Where are these helpful Muslims when you need them? Are some of these the numerous friends/relatives/associates/neighbours who refused to help the cops stop the "Leb-style" gang rapists in Western Sydney? Are these the Community Leaders who endlessly excuse the "Anti-Skippies" rhetoric of these young blokes; the leaders who, instead of announcing that these nitwits are a few bad apples they are ashamed of, persist in denying they ARE bad apples, thereby confirming that they (the leaders) are not ashamed.Note that I don't write it "leaders" with inverted commas, trying to imply that they are failing in their job. This role is EXACTLY what they are fulfilling as they let all these miscreants off the hook; to reenforce the Muslim Community's belief that they are the "special ones" beyond Australian Law, Custom and Social Norms. Cheers..

Punter 57,

Good post.

Their leaders are doing their job, spewing hatred to their youth in mosques, then calling us racists when we respond to the inherent racism of their cultures!?!

Arranged marriages! Come on people, xenophobia means Islam, it means the non-west.

Even our genetics show we mixed the most, which is why we all look so different with blue eyes, brown eyes, blonde hair, and so on.

Not so with non-whites. Racist to the core, arranged marriages, kids married off to elders in tribal societies, and so on.

Get real. We allow everyone in to our countries, which I think is dumb given that crime and violence are part of some non-western cultures, especially filthy third world ones.

But unlike what Indians believe (with their caste system - they should be bombed for this) the potential of every human being is the same. It's ones culture that causes problems. Which is why there are no Muslim nobel prize winners and that whole region is a dump.

They're ethics are rubbish.

While multi culturalism has proven a dismal failure as can be seen by the infiltration of terriost and terriost sympathizers, still by far the most dangerous place to be alive in Australia is in a mother's womb.

When we hear of fighting between so called insurgents and others, it has become the norm for the insurgents to shelter behind, or take as hostages to shoot from behind, women and children.
To the Western mind this is the most cowardly ,basest way for anyone to fight a war.
Yet it appears to be the norm to the muslim mind, the latest example being the Red Mosque in Pakestan where the lives of hundreds of women and girls are at enormous risk.
This is just another proof that the muslim and the westerner will never live as one. What they see as normal, we see as loathesome and vice versa.
We share nothing in common, we should not have to share our lives.

There may be only 300,000 Muslims in Australia but they have successfully created no-go areas for the rest of us in South West Sydney. Whether there are 10,000 or 30,000 potential Jihadists is not the issue here. The issue is not many of the 300,000 condemned the London fanatics, the Madrid bombers or 9/11. This community also actively supports Hezbollah whose agenda is to get everyone into an Iranian style backwater. I did not detect much outcry over Bali either.
Let us hear some support for Australia; surely the sectarian Turkish community has something to say. In the link provided by Phillip Tang the radicals are referred to as bearded Billy goats. This is the rhetoric the Muslim community needs to use rather than maintain their silence.

In many posts I say lies are used as a weapon by far too many in the Muslim community, now I did not mean radicals alone.
Fact is increasingly we are as posters have said here called racist for expressing concerns at the in would looking sometimes bigoted way we are treated in these community's.
And without doubt we should debate is it worth while offering a new life to some who undermine ours.
Quite frankly I think not.
But in time some bigoted people will from within these community's prove that we can only live together if both sides act to dump the idiotic fools who destroy trust.
Do not always blame the young some truly bigoted parents exist in Sydney's Muslim community.

A great religious founder once said, “… they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Mat 26:52).

The Islamists from the Red Mosque who wanted to overthrow the rule of law of its government and setting up Shariah law has ended tragically. Once again the world has witnessed the Muslims’ attempt at taking control over a sovereign government. They have also declared war on non-Muslims by killing many Chinese people. We can be sure that if there were Europeans or other non-Muslims, they too will be gunned down.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6282574.stm

The line that separates Muslims, Islamists and Jihadists is getting more blur and obscure as the days go by. They refer to the same thing, MUSLIMS. Enough is enough, its time to classify Islam as a political system and Muslims are political activists with an agenda to replace secularism with the rule of the Shariat.

It is in the interest of world peace to abolish it completely as suggested by an ex-Muslim.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Swadhin/Abolishing-Islam.htm

“The nations such as Germany and Austria, most severely affected by the ravages of Nazism have banned the expression of pro-Nazi ideas, including publication of books, organized activities and a concerted campaign to defame, marginalize and extinguish neo-Nazism.”

It would be a good idea to start a campaign right here in OLO
to classify Islam as a political system or better still its abolishment in secular democracies

The idea that London or Australian born muslims who plot to carry out bomb attacks must somehow be radicalised or extremists and so must only be a small percentage is a nice comforting thought for a lot of people in the West but it is incorrect .

Sure they are inflamed by the muftis but what the muftis tell them is only tapping in to their own natural born instincts as tribal warriors. It’s a latent instinct in every single male muslim in the country to go to battle against other tribes whom they perceive as a threat to their bloodline. The arranged marriages and killing of women who get friendly with outsiders in the West is precisely this instinct at work. The gang rapes of the white women are another aspect of this instinct where the males (and females) only want those of their blood line on the territory.

That’s why it can be doctors or any muslim male who will do this. Don’t forget Britain lost thousands and thousands of men in World War 2 before they woke up to the fact that their high society officers who went to fancy military academys weren’t suited to lead the men . The real leaders of men in battle arose from the ranks. In other words military leaders of men are born . They can come from any section of the muslim (or other tribes in Western society . They have strong warrior(military instincts) or perhaps they just don’t see the need to repress these instincts as the other muslim men around them are doing. They also have the ability to inspire other muslim men to follow their lead by committing the same acts. Remember how the warrior braveheart in the movie inspired his people to rise up and fight.

Sharkfin it will come, we will learn to hate those who hate us with the same blind bigotry as them.
To question their rights to a religious belief as much as they question ours.
To kill in the same uncaring way innocents as they do.
And one day we will know efforts to prove after many generations and much pain we still can live together in safety are untrue.
One day this war on terror ,like it or not will be total war.
Then just maybe if we win we can live in peace if not? who would want to live in such a world.
Now my friends remind me I look racist, but understand I think I am a realist and have thoughts of an idiot former British leader and his so wrong claim of peace in our time.

Belly said:

[we will learn to hate those who hate us...
To question their rights to a religious belief as much as they question ours.
To kill in the same uncaring way innocents as they do.]

This is quite possible..IF.. we don't take a careful look at the beliefs of our enemies, and in ignorance just try to 'gee up' our mob to 'get them'.

The thing which separates the Judao/Christian 'West' from such barbarity as perpetrated by Al Qaeda and their ilk, is that we have at the foundation of our philosophical underpinnings the idea of 'Love your enemies', which came from Christ, who was presenting an Old testament concept.

The day we abandon such underpinnings, is the day when we will become the same animals our enemies are. On that day, we will believe that to slowly carve off a mans head and place the event on video for the world to see, is a 'good' thing.

I respond with the words of Isaiah the prophet "Woe to those who call good evil and evil good"

MUSLIM LEADERS have a very difficult problem. The only way they can speak against such radicalization is to speak against the clear teaching of the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah. Sure, they can claim a 'modern' intepretation, but that will be met with 'Red Mosque' radicalism. Unfortunately, the Red Mosque-i-teers will win, because they can point to exactly where the 'modern' leaders are ignoring or falsifying the Quran.
The only solution at that point, will be the same one President Musharraf applied to the Red Mosque radicals.
"Radical"...and "Terminal"

The Red Mosque event, should alert us to exactly HOW Mosques and prayer halls (Baulkham Hills) can be used for indoctrination of terrorists. The sorry outcome of this is not seen until such places are filled with grenades, bombs, assault rifles and booby traps.

I call on the residents of Baulkham Hills to reorganize themselves, and request the removal of the prayer hall which was forced upon them in spite of 5000 written objections.

I thought the Baulkham Hills prayer hall was dead in the water? There are enough no-go areas in Sydney now without another in the middle of Baulkham Hills.
Phillip Tang has an interesting suggestion in that Muslims should be treated as a political system and not as a religion. Unless they separate religion from politics and become sectarian they should not enjoy the protection they rely on so heavily. If they need to hide their political ambition behind religion then they should face the slings and arrows and criticism that other political systems endure. As they are so vulnerable they do not handle criticism very well and will react as they did to the Danish cartoons.

Benjamin,

“Which is why there are no Muslim Nobel prize winners”

Do you expect me to believe you are a lawyer when you keep throwing ill-founded statements?
There are 11 Muslim Nobel prize winners since 1978 or an averahe of 1 ever 2.6 years.

1. Ahmed Zweil 1999 (Chemistry - Egypt)
2. Naguib Mahfouz 1988 (Literature- Egypt)
3. Mohammes Unus 2006 (Peace - Bangladesh)
4. Mohammed El Baradei 2005 (Peace - Egypt)
5. Shirin Abbadi 2003 (Peace - Iran)
6. Anwar Sadat 1978 (Peace – Egypt)
7. Yasser Arafat 1994 (Peace - Palestine)
8. Orhan Pamuk 2006 (Literature - Turkey)
9. Ferid Murad 1998 (Medicine - Albania)
10. Abdus Salam 1979 (Physics - Pakistan)
11. Amartya Sen 1998 (Economics- Bangladesh)

5 of them are in peace. 2 in literature, 1 in chemistry, 1 in physics, 1 in Medicine and 1 in Economics.

Peace,

I think David Boaz is right on this.

You cannot defeat barbarism by becoming a barbarian.

We don't have to hate them as they hate us, we need only to realise the necessity of resisting them.. and then resist them with the grim ruthlessness that the Allies resisted Nazi Germany in WWII.

Unfortunately, for the foreseeable future, realising the need to resist Islam seems to be missing. Our political correctness and naive belief, as a society, that religions are all inherently equivalent is leaving us watching on as if 9/11, 7/7, Madrid and Bali were simple accidents.

But Islam is not like Christianity, or any other religion I can think of. it preaches and propogates itself by hatred and destruction of everything alien to it. Whereas most religions propogate themselves by example and teaching some admirable moral system. Islam quite explicitly advocates threats and force to obtain conversion and seemingly to the sole end that "there is no God but Allah." The Koran makes it permissible to lie and decieve those who are not followers. Basically, there are no rules for Muslims provided they are furthering the ends of Islam.

What kind of a morality is that?

I'm not at all religious, but to my knowledge, no where is Christ said to have sanctioned lying, let alone violence and murder - although he is suppposed to have had a tantrum in a Jewish temple once, as I recall (Perhaps DB can elaborate). As DB points out, Underpinning Christianity is the teaching to "love your enemies".

While I may not live by Christ's teachings, with VERY few exceptions, I can be very confident Christians do not see legitimacy in furthering their ends through violence.

Islam is a religion of hate.

We live in a tolerant society.
To keep it tolerant we must resist those who are intolerant.
Islam is intolerant.
We must resist Islam.

About the 'Muslim' Nobel winners, look at the details:

1. Ahmed Zweil 1999 (Chemistry - Egypt) In US since 1970s. Faculty member at CalTech

2. Naguib Mahfouz 1988 (Literature- Egypt) His books were banned in many Arab countries. Death threats. In 1994 Islamic extremists almost succeeded in assassinating the 82-year-old novelist by stabbing him in the neck

3. Mohammes Unus 2006 (Peace - Bangladesh) Famous for his concept of microcredit, to replace usurious loans to poor. Recently started a democratic political party but abandoned the idea because of the “political climate” destroying the country

4. Mohammed El Baradei 2005 (Peace - Egypt) In US since 1970s. Envolved in Iran and Iraq nuclear controversies. Still alive and still at IAEA.

5. Shirin Abbadi 2003 (Peace - Iran). Not much liked by the Islamic government in Iran. Has defended writers, activists and Bahai persecuted by Islamic regime.

6. Anwar Sadat 1978 (Peace – Egypt) Murdered by Islamists.

7. Yasser Arafat 1994 (Peace - Palestine) Terrorist. Known for stealing from his people for 30 plus years and lying to the world. Died of AIDS.

8. Orhan Pamuk 2006 (Literature - Turkey) In 2006, after criminal charges had been pressed against him in Turkey for his outspoken comments on the Armenian genocide and murder of kurds, Pamuk returned to the US

9. Ferid Murad 1998 (Medicine - Albania). In the US since the 1960s.

10. Abdus Salam 1979 (Physics - Pakistan) Lived in Europe from 1950s til his death in 1996. He was a devout member of the Ahmadiyya community, considered to be deviates and persecuted by main-stream Muslims.

11. Amartya Sen 1998 (Economics- Bangladesh) Interesting guy. Wrote about positive freedom and problems in disfunctional societies. Wrote article about "More Than 100 Million Women Are Missing", analyzing the mortality impact of unequal rights in Asia.

Isn't the Internet wonderful!

Kactuz

Kaktuz,

My comment above to a claim made by Benjamin that there are no Muslim Nobel Prize winners.

The 11 Muslim Nobel prize winners lived and died as practising Muslims. Whether in the US, the UK, in their own countries, liked or persecuted by Islamists is irrelevant. They were good practising Muslims who helped humanity and found no contradiction between their beliefs, the countries of choice and the science and reseach for the greater good.

I feel sorry for you. Your hate is blinding your sense of reason,

Peace,

I agree with Fellow-Human. This thread seems to draw out the best in our resident Islamophobic and Christian frootloops.

Benjamin: "Come on people, xenophobia means Islam, it means the non-west." Wrong, Benji. Buy a dictionary.

runner: "by far the most dangerous place to be alive in Australia is in a mother's womb." Huh? Right on topic again.

Philip Tang: "It would be a good idea to start a campaign right here in OLO to classify Islam as a political system or better still its abolishment in secular democracies" Great idea Phil. I'm sure that "classification" will have those dreadful Muslims abandoning their faith in droves. After classification, perhaps we should restrict them to ghettoes. What next, I wonder?

Abolish Islam? And how would you propose we do that, Phil? I'd like to abolish Christianity and all other silly and pernicious relgions, but I'm not stupid enough to think that it would actually be possible.

Belly: "Now my friends remind me I look racist..." If you walk like a duck, talk like a duck...

Boazy: "The Red Mosque event, should alert us to exactly HOW Mosques and prayer halls (Baulkham Hills) can be used for indoctrination of terrorists. The sorry outcome of this is not seen until such places are filled with grenades, bombs, assault rifles and booby traps.

I call on the residents of Baulkham Hills to reorganize themselves, and request the removal of the prayer hall which was forced upon them in spite of 5000 written objections." Old Boazy's just stirring up a little "righteous anger", isn't he?

Not to mention old Kactuz, who just loves to rouse the rabble too.

So much fear, loathing and hatred. I agree that we're likely in for some religiously based social unrest in Australia, and people like you clowns will be just as responsible as the Islamic radicals you love to hate.

Do you think the ordinary Muslim is happy with the existance of the terrorists? They are equally threatened. But if the rest of us gang up against all of them with suspicion and hatred they will feel unable to work with us in eliminating this unpleasant group.

Muslims are PEOPLE like the rest of us. If we show some consideration for them we can together weed out the bad apples. I personally don't like Archbishop Pell, or Tony Abbott's attempts to impose Catholic law on all of us. Or that Christian what's his name who tells us all that we are sinning if we enjoy ourselves. But we don't speak of them in the way we speak of Muslims, we differentiate between Christians and should do the same for Muslims.

I am no do gooder, don't accuse me of that. This is basic management practice. No one is a redneck if they criticize some extremist groups, Christian or Muslim. But when they tar all Muslims with the one brush that is racism. It is not nice and worst of all it is counter productive.

Heil CJM Himmler!
It looks like a good old reunion between Nazis/Muslims in OLO, just like World War 2 when Hitler met Muslims (represented by the mufti of Palestine) to plan the decimation of Jews and the non-Aryan race. http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

Nazis and Islamists have at least two things in common; the desire to wipe out the Jews from the face of the earth and also the obsession with world supremacy. One uses Darwinism to champion the lie of the Aryan race and also to justify the Holocaust.
http://www.trueorigin.org/holocaust.asp

The other makes use of ‘god’ to kill people of different religions, terrorise non-Muslims, bully women, rape non-Muslims, etc. They gained their inspiration from a band of brigands, murderers, rapists who put together a very holey book of “how to hate”

Philip Tang

You have just done exactly what I am criticizing. Part of your point about Nazis and Islamists was worth consideration, but you used the expression "Nazis/Muslims". Nazi/Islamists is one thing but you might have written Germans/Muslims. You correctly distinguished between Germans and Nazis but not between Muslims and Islamists. I hope that this was a mistake.

We could have a productive discussion between Muslims and others on what to do about Islamists but this can't happen in the present environment. Cool it!

Fellow_human,

I'm a law student not a lawyer. Trust me, there is a BIG difference. You wouldn't want me representing you just yet, I'm not ready.

Besides, I want to do a PHD (if I get the marks) on the links between crime and culture.

Here is an excellent link to a British site that has listed all the victims of multiculturalism in the past thirty years, of third world cultures with outrageous ethics.

http://thefallenlist.blogspot.com/

I don't hate non-westerners, I just hate their cultures, and I'll get to that point about the Nobel Prize in a moment as it relates to what I'm about to say here.

All humans have the same potential, it's just cultural and ethical systems which get in the way.

This is what is so good about the west, as it allows people to be whatever they want as long as they hold to certain values - like everyone is equal. It's important to acknowledge too that the west has only followed it's own values, I think, in the last thirty years or so - since women got equality, homosexuals, and so on.

But this is why there are problems with SOME Muslims, who believe women are worth 1/2 of men and so on.

You must agree with this sentiment?

The website shows cases of murdered British people as a DIRECT RESULT of allowing people into Britain with third world ethical systems, which allows members of that culture to hang out in packs, or thirty people to stab someone to death with swords for looking at them the wrong way.

This sort of thing is unheard of among whites. No one can deny this. There may be an example or two, like Martin Bryant (who is partly mad) but it isn't part of our culture.

Surely you accept the west has the best ethics?

It's the same with the AWB thing. Many western governments told Australia we were dumb to investigate AWB as paying bribes is simply the culture of middle-eastern business. One can't even do anything there without bribes, it's their way...

...that all makes perfect sense to me.

I can only hope that over time people see it all for themselves. It's all about ethics systems, and racism because the west isn't a product of the racist's particular tribe or culture, so they won't accept it.

It's like the racist Dourahei brothers from Hizbut-Tahrir, who are living in the west because it is better than Muslim nations, yet want the world to become a Muslim nation.

Utter racism.

I take your point about the Nobel Prizes but come on, five were for peace - these are hand-outs. You know this. Yasser Arafat even got one and he was a murderous terrorist! And the others were probably all educated in the west, am I right?

All I'm saying is that it seems that wherever Islam reigns, the society produces few 'thinkers'.

Of course ALL humans have the potential to be an Einstein, as we all roughly have the same genetics give or take a few characteristics about pigmentation and so on.

I think the ABC journalist Stephen Crittenden said it best when he stated that 'Islam makes societies poor', that it is 'conjusive to poverty, whether that be material poverty, or poverty of the mind'.

I never thought about it before, but it's true.

Saudi Arabia and other Arab Gulf states are rich, but what do they do for mankind - other than build mosques and sponsor terrorism? And not allow churches to be built on their land?

They don't do research into anything, they have set boundaries Islam won't permit them to stray from. They have gotten used to letting Allah think for them.

Surely you know what I mean? I enjoy our debates by the way.

And peace to you, too.

CJ Morgan

Good news from Holland, the Dutch may ban the wearing of the burqa in public. This is indeed good news, lets hope they go further and reclassify Islam as a political system and Muslims are political activists with their own agaenda.

“Mrs Verdonk gave warning that the “time of cosy tea-drinking” with Muslim groups had passed and that natives and immigrants should have the courage to be critical of each other. She recently cancelled a meeting with Muslim leaders who refused to shake her hand because she was a woman.”

“The Netherlands has become preoccupied by Islamic terrorism after the investigation into the murder of the film-maker Theo van Gogh uncovered a network of Muslim extremists dedicated to destroying the country.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article577915.ece

It is typical of Muslims in Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc to intimidate non-Muslims and destroy their places of worship especially after Friday prayers, immediately charged up by the hate sermons of the Muslim cleric. Now the Muslim government of Malaysia are destroying churches of its indigenous people, the Orang Asli.

http://www.coac.org.my/codenavia/portals/coacv2/code/main/main_art.php?parentID=0&artID=11814707293830

http://www.coac.org.my/codenavia/portals/coacv2/code/main/main_art.php?parentID=0&artID=11814707293830
Apparently the website (above) which hosted the article of the Malaysian Government destroying the church is either not available or difficult to reach. Here are two other websites which shows the building before and after it was destroyed.

http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/newsncom.php?itemid=5611

http://salemvoice.org/news181.html

Be warned. You never can know when a “moderate” Muslim becomes an extremist. As long as a Muslim stays a Muslim you can never know when s/he will be influenced to become an extreme Muslim.

Benjamin

May I offer a few additions to your research and your PhD.

In earlier times Islam was the centre of ideas and Europe was the backwater. So Islam is not the problem.

Historically there are periods when groups of Europeans have grouped together and killed and pillaged other societies, eg in Australia, and that was not so long ago.

Christians for centuries on end tried to force their religion on others, that is not an Islamic prerogative, in fact Westerners left for countries like India and hung round in packs trying to force their values on others, even taking away their children.

And do you really hate all non-western cultures? What about Japan, China, India and Thailand, are they not thinking and developing values and ideas?

And Phillip Tang

It is typical of Christians in Spain, Germany, France etc to intimidate non-Christians and destroy their places of worship especially after Saturday prayers, immediately charged up by the hate sermons of the Christian clerics.

Christianity has changed, but it had to. The Medieval Church makes the Bali bombers look like Saints.

Philip Tang,

A muslim can’t be a muslim if you dishonour other religions specially places of worship like churches and the likes.
You need to educate yourself on Islam as seen by Muslims. Here is a video on youtube by Ahmed Deedat on the importance of Jesus (pbuh) and followers of Christianity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqFluSiXSkM&mode=related&search=

Benjamin,

Good luck with your PHD, happy to help with any research material if you need to.

I smiled about the ‘western ethics’as it reminded me with a quote by a famous Islamic reformists, Mohammed Abdou (1877). He said exactly what you said when he travelled to Europe in the 19th century “I have seen there Islam but no Muslims, in the Islamic world, there are lots of Muslims but no Islam (meaning practice of ethics)”

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/000711/2000071147.html

Muhammad Abdou's call for reform was based on three main precepts:

-1- Religious reform aiming at liberating thought from the shackles of conventionalism.

-2- Language reform, in terms of styles and usages, aiming at evolving a modern, powerful medium of expression and an element for unifying and integrating the nation.

-3- Political reform, where he believed that a democratic line should be struck between the state's right to obedience by the people and the letter's right to justice by the state. This principle is the basis of social life and Islam was a democratic religion, he believed.

There is lots of truth to what you said but I made a conscious choice to focus on positive reformists rather than wasting energy and mind space thinking of the idiots like the one you mentioned above.

Agree with Logic, Islam is like any other religion and the problem is with few of its dogmatic followers.

I enjoy debating with you too,

Peace,

Good try ‘logic’. “….to intimidate non-Christians and destroy their places of worship especially after Saturday prayers.” Christians meet on Sunday, not Saturday. Perhaps you could start assuming the name ‘logicus ignoramus’ :-)

Wherever the Muslims are found….

They kill Buddhists in South Thailand.
They kill Hindus and Christians in India
They kill Christians in Philippines, Indonesia.
They kill Bahais and other non-Muslims in Iran.
http://question.bahai.org/004.php
They kill fellow Muslims in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Palestine.

Islam is a failed political system as well as a ‘religion’. No surprises why droves of Muslims from north Africa, Pakistan and Bangladesh are trying to get into Europe by hook or by crook. Thousands try to get into Australia and New Zealand. Why ‘logic’, if Islam is such a great religion, why aren’t Muslims emigrating to Saudi Arabia, Egypt or one of the Muslim-Arab states?

The real reason is that Islam is a big failure and the Allah can’t deliver what he has promised the Muslims.

99% of Muslims did not choose to be one, they are born a Muslim. Having gone through Western, secular education where rational thinking is emphasized, Muslims in western countries can easily see that Islam is irrelevant in this modern age and Islamic countries are living examples of failed states. Religion is made for humankind, and not humankind for religion. As such, Muslims have to make the rational choice. Leave Islam and become ex-Muslims.

These are two articles written by ex-Muslims. Hope you find them useful.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Why-Muslims-doomed-to-fail.htm
http://www.islam-watch.org/ImranHossain/when_almighty_allah_does_not_know.htm

Asalamalakum.

Islam is a failed political system as well as a ‘religion’ - Philip Tang
Somehow it reminds me of the ruling Communist Regime in China today. Refer www.ninecommentaries.com. This publication has spurred over 23 million Chinese to renounce anything to do with the Chinese Communist Party and its affliliated organisations. Like the "Berlin Wall", the "Red Curtain" is coming down and hopefully it will be before the Olympics, for no tyrannic Regime deserves to be the host of these great Games.

Philip Tang,

Whats with the 'lalala, am not listening, am not listening'.

The conflicts you are referring to are political and geographical of nature. Read the history of the british and French colonialism and 'border conflicts' policies for the last 400 years. Almost every war can be traced back to it.

Around 20% of arabs population are Christians since Jesus days till today. The churches and temples in all arab (muslim)countries are still there. If the propaganda material of your is credible, there would have been all converted or killed like the Spanish inquisition.

You seen to have brainwashed yourself,

Peace,

Philip Tang

Excuse the lapse but Christians did originally meet on Saturdays and the Seventh Day Adventists still do.

You classify Islam as a failed religion, it was a success in the middle ages when it saved Europe from a Church imposed ignorance. Without the Muslims and the Jews the richness of the Roman and Greek world and their medical discoveries would have been lost. And the Muslims produced the zero and algebra. Hardly a failure. It was Christianity which produced the Dark Ages.

Which was the failure?

Philip Tang might have embellished it a bit to get the point across. I guess his anger comes from the fact that Muslims are in denial about Muhammed, and that they continue to paint this rosy (false) picture of Islam whilst people keep dying in it's wake. As a non-muslim, I am actually sick to death of Islam and it's twisted doctrines.
If smashing Idols, murdering Jewish POW's and assassinating critics is not considered radical by you Muhuammed lover's, then it is easy to understand why Muslim leaders do not speak out about such radical behaviour.

More and more people are coming to see Islam for what it is. A violent political system garbed in a thin veil of religious mumbo jumbo.

Why continue to bring suffering to yourself and others by believing it to be true and from a God? Are you that locked in to being a Muslim that you lie to yourself and others? Are you able to admit you were wrong, change, and move on?

Hong:

It would be simplistic if one were to say that the West represents what is good and the non-West represents what is bad.

The chief motivating factor for the Western colonial expansion was greed. Take the example from Japan, in the 19th century the Japanese leaders policy of isolation was challenged by Russia, England, and the U.S., making Japanese feudal leaders aware of Japan's vulnerability to superior Western firepower.

Japan was forced to sign a series of unequal treaties, which, as in China, gave Western nations special privileges in Japan. Britain used gun-boat diplomacy to sell opium and preached Christianity to the Chinese. All the expert kung fu fighters were no match for the British. Later the French joined the British (2nd Opium War) to plunder the Chinese capital and destroyed the Summer Palace.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/east_asian_history/111392
http://www2.uhv.edu/fairlambh/asian/opium_wars.htm

The Japs were smarter than the Chinese in that they broke with their feudal past and began a search for knowledge that could transform Japan into a "rich country with a strong military." Education was reformed, and compulsory coeducational elementary schools were introduced . By 1912 the goals of the reforming movement called the Meiji Restoration had been largely accomplished: the unequal treaties with Western powers had been revised, the country was developing well economically, and its military power had won the respect of the West. [adapted wikipedia]

The policies and actions of Red China has to be seen in the light of how (in the past and presently?) the Chinese suffered under the hands of the Western countries and Japan when owing to pure greed they forcibly occupied parts of China leading to the signing unequal treaties. http://www.lexingtonbooks.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?command=Search&db=%5EDB/CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0739112082

Mao did a lot of good for China in that he wiped away years and years of religious superstitions and traditions that got in the way of progress and rational thought. However, his cultural revolution caused much hardship for the Chinese people.

It remains to be seen if China would become a modern colonial power guilty of the sins that she accused the West of.