Fellow_human,

May I suggest you changed your pseudonym to Quick_Silver. You're one of a kind when it comes to using taqiya and kitman,... Wow – you should have been a lawyer instead of a professional defender of Islam.

This shows how Islam has immunised you and itself from external criticism. Mohammad was a genius indeed – too bad he was no longer around when the Qur’an was finally edited and made book. I can just see the man doing the book signing promotions at Dymocks and the compulsory TV morning-shows.

Who knows he may even have dethroned Rushdie - and received a literary accolade or two.

He was known to intensely like poetry; as the style of his Qur’an clearly shows. The jury is still out about him being a total illiterate though (a successful businessman-come-statesman...?) some say his illiteracy was confused with “ignorance” the dark ages he grew up in.

FH– you are at a lose-lose when trying to defend Islam – this is the 21st century, people have access to information now. So you can forget about: “ask a Muslim about Islam” when most of us have the Qur’an and Hadiths to judge you or your self-proclaimed prophet of Islam.

You can thank the editors of the Qur’an (Osman & Associates @ dar el fitna wal tazweer. nos-com) to have preserved for eternity some abrogated ayat for us to quote. Too bad they burnt all the original manuscripts – we could have had a fuller picture of the entire masquerade.

No matter how good you are at deluding yourself and others that Islam is the only true religion, you have nothing but the words of one misguided man/prophet to back you up.

Sorry this wont stand in any court today.

Jesus is The One who is coming back to judge the world. Not mere prophets like Moses, Abraham, or David… (and certainly not Mohammad)

By denying Jesus’ death and resurrection Mohammad committed the unforgivable sin against God and humanity.

Fellow-Human and Yvonne,

Both of you obviously didn't read my post.

Just to make it clear, I previously stated that Islam should NOT be judged by the conduct of its adherents but rather by the quality of its historical texts.

It doesn't matter that Sufism is the beautiful flower of Islam and Wahabism is the noxious weed. I am more interested in the soil (or rather the manure) that they have BOTH grown out of.

My objections to the religion of Islam are academic. The likes of Osama bin Laden do not feature in my decision as to whether Islam is true or not.

Rather my objections stem from the fact that early Islamic history is completely inadequate. Put simply, there is NOT enough evidence to support the hypothesis that the Koran has a supernatural origin.

Indeed, we could even say that the evidence is so bad that it requires a delusion on behalf of the Muslim to believe that a real angel from heaven actually recited the Koran to Mohammad.

Even you Fellow-Human have admitted that the best Islamic texts formulated by Imam Bukhari and Ibn Ishaq (via Ibn Hisham) are deficient and cannot be trusted.

Coach,

- “You're one of a kind when it comes to using taqiya and kitman"

Guess what’s the origin of Taqiya and Kitman? It turned up to be a fatwa given by a Muslim scholar (Ibn Taymyah) during the 10th century AD when the crusaders tortured Muslims to convert them by force. So the context was “If a Muslim is forced to convert and go to church(Taqiya), he/she can do that while keep their faith in secret (Kitman)”. Even some Orthodox and Nestorian Christians used to follow the fatwa fearing for their life. Disgraceful don’t you agree?

- “Jesus is The One who is coming back to judge the world. Not mere prophets like Moses, Abraham, or David… and certainly not Mohammad”

Not sure I understand the above, Muslims also believe in Jesus (pbuh) second coming and him judging the world. Your point is…?

-“By denying Jesus’ death and resurrection Mohammad committed the unforgivable sin against God and humanity. “

So does Jews, Atheists, etc…So everyone who disagrees with your faith committed an ‘Unforgivable Sin”?

Coach; please cool it you are taking religion too serious. We all read and we all believe because we want to believe. Truth is a matter of personal judgement and maybe we are just meant to be different and stay different. If you truly believe in your faith you should not feel threatened by another belief just because it doen’t agree with you.

TR,

“Rather my objections stem from the fact that early Islamic history is completely inadequate. Put simply, there is NOT enough evidence to support the hypothesis that the Koran has a supernatural origin”

Please read my post to Boaz on the very same topic.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=815#14258

“Even you Fellow-Human have admitted that the best Islamic texts formulated by Imam Bukhari and Ibn Ishaq (via Ibn Hisham) are deficient and cannot be trusted” . No, you said that : -) All I said that some of the hadith conflicts with the Quran and therefore is discarded or ‘nicely ignored’: -).

Peace,

I read your reply to 'Boazy' Fellow-Human. That is;

'Boazy,

I don’t believe Jay Smith is a liar just the approach of an 'excavation egineering' is flawed. The first question re scripture is its consistency with the natural laws of scripture: messenger selection and dictation. Throughout history and for unknown reasons to us God chose his prophets and dictated his scripture. Abraham, Moses, David, Mohammed. Similar to the Torah, The Quran was ‘forced’ or dictated to the prophet ( I won’t dwell on that since you studied the prophet’s biography, how can you explain Surah 80 “He frowned”?)...'

Why do Muslims arrogantly assume that their only real competition is Christianity. I don't believe in Jesus, nor the Bible. As far as I'm concerned both the Bible and Koran are primitive forms of mythology. That is, neither books can be trusted as real factual history.

To me the idea of Prophets and talking angels is childish nonsense and fit only for the intellectually backward.

Try again Fellow-Human, and please try and make some sense to this sceptical atheist. Give me one good reason why I should believe in the centre piece of Islamic theology - a talking angel thing called Gabriel.

TR,

“Why do Muslims arrogantly assume that their only real competition is Christianity? I don't believe in Jesus, nor the Bible. As far as I'm concerned both the Bible and Koran are primitive forms of mythology”

Arrogance and pride are sins in our beliefs. The comment I forwarded to you above is in a discussion with Boaz who is a professional retired missionary and bashing Islam is his favorite past-time.
Apologies if you saw the comment as arrogant that was not the intent.

I don’t believe theologies compete but it’s rather a market place with different flavors, each individual picks up whatever appeals to him or her.

“Try again Fellow-Human, and please try and make some sense to this sceptical atheist. Give me one good reason why I should believe in the centre piece of Islamic theology - a talking angel thing called Gabriel”

I was never an atheist but I was agnostic for few years. I can’t summarise 6 years of thought and soul search in 350 words. It was a mystic journey for me and was initiated one day out of watching nature on the farm (animals, ants). One thing didn’t sit well: the idea of extremely advanced civilizations like ants and bees kingdoms (far more advanced than humans) yet for some reason we are in charge of this planet, its creatures and ourselves. Even the caterpillar kingdom have a purpose in life and it prompted me with the question “whats the advanced monkeys purpose in life”. I started there, with endless list of why, who, how..
I don’t want to bore you or audience with it I think its going to be a very long TR/FH discussion. If you want to pursue it: my email is viewsexchange@gmail.com

Peace as always,

Thanks for sharing Fellow-Human.

I have a suspicion that your 'mystical journey' is not yet over. This is not a bad thing as journeys are gererally more interesting than the actual destination.

I must admit that I have some admiration for people who choose to believe in God. Especially if they use logical thought processes like the 'Five Ways' of Saint Thomas Aquinis as a foundation for their belief.

However, I have mild contempt for people who choose to believe in angels. To me they are no more logical than unicorns, fairies, or goblins. The existence of God and the existence of angels are too very different issues. What's more, modern neuroscience (eg schizophrenia/narcolepsy) easily accounts for the illusion of angelic experiences without the need for evoking the highly unlikely notion of the supernatural.

As for the complexity of nature being a 'proof' for God I recommend 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' by Daniel Dennett. In this book Dennett explains that;

'Darwin's dangerous idea is that Design can emerge from mere Order via an algorithmic process that makes no use of pre-existing Mind.' p83.

It is a brilliant tour de force and should be compulsory reading for anyone interested in philosophy or the science of Darwinism.

If you want to discover the 'meaning of life' Fellow-Human then I recommend 'The Meaning of Things' and 'The Heart of Things' by A.C. Grayling. These works are both beautiful and gentle.

Thanks for the invigorating discussion!