FH

You said:
"No need to get hot under the collar its just a discussion."

I'm not getting hot under the collar. I can see you are clutching at straws. I can see you have no valid defence when you start calling me dishonest.

You said:
"Is this another dishonesty or your ‘professors on Islam’ don’t know? Let me tell you then: the time of this specific revelation Muslims were facing extermination wars (during their holy months of worship) and hence were allowed to defend themselves without transgressing...blah blah blah."

Defence fiddlesticks!
Muhammed had started as one man. His followers grew in number as he raided and stole the belongings of others. Is it any wonder that the "government" at the time were responsible for outlawing brigandry?
Being so weighed down by the absurdities in Quran, you lose your ability to reason.

You said:
"- When you want to understand a faith, you ask those who belong to it."

When discussing Islam with muslims, I get all sorts of twisted replies, that's why I go to Quran and AlHadith for verification.

You go on to bleat:

"-“Inciting violence, land wars, etc..” : That’s crusaders mythology. How did Islam get to Malaysia, Indonesia, India and the US?
The following is a news article on CNN and shows 25% of US Muslims are new converts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN-EfgU7PW4"

Once again, you ignore the divisiveness and violence in the name of Islam by providing distractions. You would need to ask the Hindus on the Island of Bali as to why they fled Java. To try and end the violence, India was partitioned to form Pakistan. The Muslims in India still issue death fatwas to those who criticize your holier than thou prophet. As for Malaysia, I don't know much about Islam entering there. And as for the US, they allow freedom of religion. Can't say the same for that holy land of Saud you and your co-religionists bow to everyday.

Once converts find out about the violence and hatred expounded by Quran, they leave Islam.
Here is a testimonial of an ex-convert.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Abdulquddus.htm

TR,

Thanks for the info I heard of Grayling but never read any of his work. Will let you know when I read them. I am now entrenched in NLP, Dianetics and Animal telepathy. They are as exciting. Agree the journey is never over. I enjoy talking to you too!

Bassam,

Are you a Muslim? No. So why insist to explain what Islam is?

“The Muslims in India still issue death fatwas to those who criticize your holier than thou prophet”

-I commented before that most reformists and Muslim scholars don’t support these kinds of fatwas:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=758#13338
- A fatwa is an opinion not a creed. There are hundreds of fatwas banning Muslims from smoking and yet 3 out of 5 practising Muslims do smoke. Don’t be dogmatic.

“Muhammed had started as one man. His followers grew in number as he raided and stole the belongings of others. Is it any wonder that the "government" at the time were responsible for outlawing brigandry? Being so weighed down by the absurdities in Quran"

I can see you stopped quoting the ‘absurdities in the Quran’ all of a sudden: -) Clever man!
History by LaMartine and Thomas Carlyle proves the man was an honest, wise merchant who never told a lie until the age of 40. He preached his message for the following 13 years with no followers so he was 53 (last 10 years of his life). According to your story, he became ‘senior citizen Robin Hood’ at the age of 53! Even Boaz, the expert on Islam Misrepresentation was smarter to fall in this trap.

- “Once converts find out about the violence and hatred expounded by Quran, they leave Islam”

Thats one side to the story. On the other hand, there are those who found Islam to be the most peaceful and tolerant faith : Yusuf Estes (link below) was an evangelist minister and used to be scared of Muslims. Listen to him telling his story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6K0627FiCk

To you and radicals of all beliefs I say: be happy, live and let live!

Peace,

'I am now entrenched in NLP, Dianetics and Animal telepathy.'

I didn't realise that you have a sense of humour Fellow-Human. Very clever!

TR

Hi Fellow Human,

I have moderated my views on Islam a little, thanks in part to you. But I have to say that your reliance on LaMartine and Thomas Carlyle for character refernces for Allah is rather hollow. Two 17th century western philosphophers/historians are hardly an airtight case. I am sure if I looked hard enough I could find at least two equally venerable historians who would say the exact opposite. Thats the nature of philosophy and history.

In any case from what I read they seemed to be saying that Muhammed was a great leader in the mould of Alexander the Great, not in the sense of Jesus Christ or Moses. And no one uses Alexander the Great to teach morals to their children. I think you're better of just acknowledging that your prophet was a flawed man by todays standards, but that your God chose him as his messenger for reasons unknown.

Peace as always, TR,

Not sure if your last comment was serious :- )
I like reading about mind power (I know dianteics is naive but never the less its a theory). I don't believe everything I read.

Hi Paul,

Just to clarify my reference to Carlyle and LaMartine wasn’t to prove God or Mohammed but to refer to philosophers to two credible historians and philosophers who weren’t ashamed to admit that the ‘character assassination campaign’ by French missionaries post the crusades was a disgraceful.

“I think you're better of just acknowledging that your prophet was a flawed man by today’s standards”

Muslims don’t see it that way and the simple proof is his message: The Quran. Isn’t interesting that Islam is the only faith to mandate belief in other books and prophets as an article of faith?
Hadith is not an article of faith in Islam since it was collected 2 centuries after the prophet’s death (and if I dare say against his will and the caliphates as they wanted believers to focus on god’s word).
The hadith that some use against the prophet either contradict the Quran, the prophet behaviour or earlier hadith which discredits it. Having said that, unfortunately we don’t have a clergy like the church that filter and bans material (like GOB). The filtration process in the Islamic faith relies on reasoning and common sense at the believer level and not the clergy. Every Muslim will tell you Tabari was a collector of material nd many of his sources by Jewish tribes who converted to Islam to avoid the Jizyah tax. The very same sources that claimed Jesus was cruel to animals and pushed a child off the roof (infancy bible) were dismissed as untrue from ‘dishonest sources’. So when liars talk about Jesus they are liars but if they are talking about Mohammed (pbut) they must be telling the truth!

btw I agree with your comment to Farooq on the other thread 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Peace as always,

FH

You said:
"Are you a Muslim? No. So why insist to explain what Islam is?"

I thought I'd made this clear. One of my intentions is to correct the misinformation spread by you and your co-religionists.

You said:
"To you and radicals of all beliefs I say: be happy, live and let live!"

Don't worry I do live and let live. I reckon in about 20 to 30 years when all this childish Jihad and blasphemy nonsense stops, intelligent muslims will look back and feel embarrassment and shame for following the rantings of a caravan raiding, jew murdering bigot who was mentally insane. When this happens, you and I will be able to sit down with a tasty red and have a really good laugh about it all :-)

Peace