"Many Muslims have attacked Ayaan for her ignorance of Islam"

According to Muslims, anybody that says anything critical of Islam is "ignorant", or is awarded the title of "So-called expert".

On the other had, saying nice things about Islam and ignoring the pain, violence, discrimination and hate in Islam and in Muslim societies makes a person "knowledgeable" like Karen Armstrong, a real blue ribbon expert.

The problem is that these experts somehow can't see the hate and violence in the Quran. The hundreds of evil deeds by MOhammed and his men, recorded in Islam's own traditions, mean nothing. They see no link between these and the state of Islamic societies or current events.

Take, for example Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). It seems tghat ms Ali Hirsi feels strongly about this. Winder why? I don't know how many times I have read on Islamic sites that it is a cultural practice, it is rare, not Islamic, bla bla bla. I took a few months off to read most of the hadiths and early biographies (including 30 volunes of Tabari) and guess what - FGM is very Islamic. In fact, it is recorded that when Islam's dear prophet saw it done, said to cut gently. Gently? Not only his endorsement is vile, but someone please tell me why he is looking at young girls private parts?

Now with the recent tragic death of a 12 yearold girl in Egypt, we find out how common this abomination is. Shame on Muslims. Shame on their prophet for the tens of millions of girls he helped mutilate.

Muslims are in denial, or dishonest. They say things that are totally untrue and pretend nobody notices. They make rules that don't apply to them (like Mohammad did!). They criticize others when their religion and societies are many times worse. Most of all, they blame others. It is never Islam's fault.

Hirsi Ali, if anything, is too kind.

Kactuz

Fellow_Human,

"There are increasing efforts by a number of Islamic scholars regarding modernisation of islamic thinking."

I'd love to believe and really hope that this is going to make a difference to the main thrust of world Islamism.

But when you are on your little pink cloud in the sky throwing friendship petals and good wishes on us from a mystical Islam, the militants Islamists and are still plotting and planting bombs in down town Dar-el-Harb.

the fundamentalists on the other hand, (Salafis, Wahabis,...) are systematically poluting your young minds and are BUYING their way into western education; from Kindergarten to Universities.

Unfortunately for your arguments, it’s the Bin-Ladens of Islam with the money and deep rooted Islamic theology that are speaking louder.

They are the voice of the new Islamic “revival”. Like it or not.

If you were fair dinkum FH you would have helped your Australian Government in cracking down on the filth that is being taught to your brothers and sisters, and children.

When I touched on Hillali’s teachings in Lakemba for example, you got all worked up as if it had nothing to do with you and your brand of Islam.

It should! You can’t come here and talk “Peace” when your community is still chanting hatred and revenge.

Well to us “unbelievers”, we can’t differentiate between one mosque and another. One group or another.

At the end they all gravitate to the same teachings.

Islam refers to the same one book and the same one prophet.

Your comments&#61514

F.H. the primary issue regarding Islam, is... sources and their meaning.
A "modern" person may seek to re-interpret Islam to a contemporary world, and to the extent that this produces peaceful, generous human beings it is to be commended on a purely human level.

I rather doubt that it would change the fundamentals of Islam, because when intelligent people evaluate a movement seriously, they will look at how the current movement compares to the foundation on which it is supposedly built.

If I may refer you, and all readers to this Saudi Cleric, you will notice that he is grappling with this very issue.

SAUDI CLERIC EDUCATING WORLD CONQUEST.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV28b1_6HGU&mode=related&search=

It's quite educational for us also.
His point is.. "Do we just choose a few Quranic verses which suit our purpose, or do we take all into account".... which is a fair and reasonable question.

Sheikh Kalid Mousselmani, Shia cleric in Australia, is another example of the dangers we are faced with. I regard him as so dangerous that I make a call for his arrest and deportation along with all of his followers. (see discussion threat about it 'Terrorism is alive and well in Australia')

Coming back to this topic.. I don't see why Irf makes so much of Hirsi Ali, she doesn't really rate high on the 'Things to use against Islam' scale.

TRTL,

Your self-righteousness knows no bounds. How dare I and other targets of your pettiness express opinions which don't meet with your approval, eh?

What I say has no 'substance'. If I'm sick of the whole Muslim thing, why do I comment? Am I willing to do this? Am I willing to do that?

You really are an arrogant piece of work.

Reynard,

You are confused. You believe in the "Aussie value of a fair go" but only, it seems, if it is censored to your liking by the likes of TRTL.

Fortunately for the rest of us, Graham Young is the person who decides what's a fair thing on OLO.

I think Islam is the greatest threat to democracy and Western culture today. It is the antithesis of both.

I don’t hate Muslims themselves.

I think that Irfan Yusuf, Fellow Human and other Muslims have a mission to push their religion like a commodity, unlike most adherents of other religions who are content to live according to their beliefs but keep it private and in its place.

I really object to the presence of Islam in Australia.

I do not believe that there is a ‘moderate’ Islam.

However, these are just opinions and, unlike some, I accept that it is too late. The “Death of the West” is well under way. Perhaps I should, as an acquaintance of mine has done, say, “Islam has nothing to do with me. Muslims have nothing to do with me. They are not part of my life. I ignore them”.

That would suit people like TRTL and, at my age, nothing is going to hit the fan before I’m well and truly gone. I will live out my life pretty much as it is now.

It’s a pity about future generations, though

To all? peace loving, kind, generous moslems please note! There has been found in London a large bomb this device was sited to cause massive damage and loss of life to any innocent male, woman, child and/or helpless baby who just happened to be there visiting or passing through. And we all know the stinking, foul, decadent, vile barbarous, uncivilized death loving psycopaths who set this bomb up eh! So now I am asking that the YWCA, the Salvation Army and the Presbyterian & Baptist Women's Guilds be run out of this country to stop these fiends doing the same in Oz. Oh hang on some are pointing their fingers at the religion of peace and compassion that's pagan moslems - more undeserved persecution aimed at these paragons of peace - how bloody sad eh? Regards, numbat

well irfun, your view of islam might be a little diferent if your penis had been removed as a small boy.....