"Whatever one may think of her leaving Islam, Ayaan’s knowledge of the Muslim societies she condemns is certainly lacking...".

And we non-Muslims should take Irfan Yusuf's word for that, should we?

IY can make such claims to a non-Muslim audience because who among us is going to make a detailed study of Islam just to find out who is right and who is wrong.

While I have always made my feelings about Irfan Yusuf clear and now rarely bother to even read his articles - which are arrogant and intolerant of dissent - and I am sick and tired of the whole Muslim thing, I have to say that all we can do is judge Islam on its public appearance; and that is not a pretty sight

Irfan,

First, people criticizing your religion are not doing it out of hatred - but LOVE.
A concept that is not existent in Islam. I don't expect you to grasp it just now.

Second, Islam refuses to engage in free open criticism. Just unsophisticated and primitive retaliation is what we get from questioning Islam.

Can you indicate to (us) how a healthy process of critiquing Islam (its books and laws) could take place without having to have a death threat for a reply?

I find Irfan's contributions to be thorough and rigourous - even if I don't agree with him. His piece's are thought-provoking as is this one about Aayan.

However, what this piece doesn't actually do is engage in the substantive critique that Aayan has put forward in her writing and public commetary.

Namely, she rejects cultural relativism because it effectively excuses injustices and brutality (in her case in the Islamist cultures she has had exposure to). Aayan puts forward the classical view that there are universal human rights that extend across all borders and all religions and that Islam should not be exceptional in that regard. Moreover, she argues that those rights are inalienable for each individual - regardless of race, gender etc.

While Irfan has mostly discussed some of the quirks of Aayan's personal history and questioned her qualifications, he has not here addressed her central theme and intellectual aim. Sure, she's not perfect. Given her amazingly candid and revealing writing about her family, it's clear that she doesn't pretend to be.

Therefore question to Irfan: in the name of "tolerance", should we turn a blind eye to physical brutality that is committed under the auspices of any religion?

Irfan,
In polite, civilised culture we enjoy the right to have our own beliefs and faiths and respect for those of others.
You know about as much about other religions as you do about Australian law and you could fit that knowledge on the back of a very small postage stamp. As for culture, the only culture you display is on the inside of last week's milk carton.
Do yourself a favour and get an education.

Irfan,

I don't think you can see past your skin colour frankly. To attack Islam isn't racist, it's simply what westerners do.

We criticise, mock even, values and belief systems.

It is this process that has led to us to refine our values over the centuries, to the point now we have a system that is really good.

So good in fact that people from all over the world want to live in western countries.

Shouldn't you want Islamic countries to be the same as western countries?

With values of equality, free speech, and so on?

WHY IS THE DEBATE ON ISLAM ALWAYS WAYLAID BY THOSE LIKE YOU WHO ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH THE WAY IT'S BEING SAID THAN WHAT IS BEING SAID.

WHY DOES THE WHOLE DEBATE ON ISLAM HAVE TO BE DROWNED OUT BY YOUR SELFISHNESS, YOUR FEARS THAT ISLAM IS BEING MISINTERPRETED.

These concerns are valid, but come way down the list in regard to the fact that there are actually people in the world who do horrible things, they say, not us, because Islam commands them to.

And yet your leaders won't condemn them, the new Mufti won't even condemn Bin Laden he is such an immoral bigot.

You surely agree that Muslim leaders - and much of their flock, the world over are bigots, uncritical, intolerant, and racist.

Hirsi Ali wants to talk about those Muslims, not the 0.5% like you who mabye are tolerant, think Islam is self-critical, and think apostates deserve to remain living.

This is what needs to be debated.

You should praise Hirsi Ali for having the courage to talk about it, given how usually those like her are killed by the people who give your religion a bad name.

Do you not see that this your comments make westerners even more sceptical?

That, rather than acknowledge that Islam ruins lives, particularly of women and non-Muslims, all you care about is the image of Islam?

Irfan, Islam's image is shattered beyond repair. No one has a good image of it...

I have just finished reading 'The Infidel' and I was touched on many levels. Ayaan's description of the refugee community in Holland has parallels with the community here. Hopefully time will allow our Muslim brothers and sisters to become less separate.

I know of a refugee whose date of birth and name is diferent here in Australia but just as it was with Ayaan, it was a question of the circumstances at the time. It had no bearing on the claims for asylum. Which brings me to nitpicking, which is how I read Irfan's response. When you select words out of context, eg fraud, you allow for misinterpretation.

I appreciated Ayaan's book as a call for the end of oppression to women in the name of Islam - and oppression is more than just physical violence. All examples of oppression amongst Muslim women and girls, that I am aware through personal experience, is justified in the name of the Koran and Islam.

As one brought up in the Catholic faith, I recall vividly the disortions I was taught in the name of religion that permitted a subordinate role for women. I am keenly aware of the sexual exploitation, exposed in recent years and carried out by 'men of religion'. Many women have spoken and still speak up and out loud about wrongs but they are not subject to real death threats stuck by a knife onto the body of a murdered man, or delivered to her through her father. There is active and open debate about these matters, and changes do occur and have occurred in response to injustice within Catholicism. To attack the messenger as Irfan does by suggesting that Ayaan's book is a lie (a la Norma Khoury) is not debating the issue. Furthermore, honour killings and fear of honour killings are a present reality for many, even here.

As long as oppression of women is carried out in the name of Islam, or any other religion, my voice will join with others who condemn that injustice, after all it is my rights that are threatened.