Ok...lets see...

Political system is essentially a common person whom using his 'power' of their singular vote to produce a parliament that will bring about a society, its norms and governance that they want to live in...ie majority rules and hopefully most voters want an society of ordinary decent people...

Religious system is to help the follower get to know god and build that personal relationship...

so there seems to be very little common ground between these two areas when one looks at their pure purpose...

So we all should be concerned when religious societies start walking into political domain...it causes so much confusion and conflict from within and without...followers are troubled by their wish for a government that their religion they follow to know god is now giving them commands and control to force a behaviour....and politicians take notice and submit to a degree to this force wrongly if the religious group has substantial numbers...

it seems the first step is remove all 'religious leaders' whom are more interested in society control than god-person relationship...their purpose is on the face of it appears corrupted...and we have seen enough corruption in history and current world havent we...

Sam

Abu Boaz,

“FH who says the Shia are wrong and the Sunni right? After all, there are LOTS of Shia, now that must be a compelling argument right?”

Factual points about the shiaa Muslims:
- They are Muslims (ie follow teachings of the Quran and Islam).
- They represent approx 9% of all Muslims (not sure where you got LOTS from, but thought I will keep you honest).
- The sunni argument is in a simple statement: that if Imam Ali wanted it the governance to be for himself or imams structure, why did he wait and watched 3 other caliphs govern before him (including Caliph Omar who governed for 12 years).
Either way, there is no theological difference between us (sunni and Shiaa). We are the same.

Stephany,

Glad you accepted my argument.
“What I am doing about it”is lighting a candle such as contributing to this forum and many others, educating myself, family, friends and contacts. Help bringing understanding of Muslims to non-Muslims and voice versa. I am interested to know the answer if you ask yourself the same question: apart from ridiculing and mocking others efforts and opinions, anything else we should know?

Stephany

Thanks - I needed the laugh after wading through the rest of this.. that is the funniest thing I have read in a while :)

I was far from surprised to see the point of the original article lost admidst the usual name calling and 'my imaginary friend is better than yours' ranting from the usual suspects. I can only hope though, that as the sum total of human knowledge advances with time, through science and open enquiry - the very antithesis of religion - such topics will eventually be rendered utterly irrelevant.

I long for that world where public debate (be it stem cells or whatever..) is conducted in terms of objective analysis and reason, not thousand year old dogma. Long may the gradual slide into irrelevancy of ALL religions continue.

I am a Sudanese Refugee from Warrnambool Victoria Australian, I was wanting to open a bank account for my DSP payment. I am disabled, I can't walk properly becasue I was a War Crime victem. I went to St George Bank Warrnambool to open an account for my payments. The manager of St George Bank Warrnambool ask me to leave the bank. When I asked why, she said "dirty black n!ggers are not welcome here!". Now I have a mental illness and not aloud back to Sudan. Can anyone help me find a way back to Sudan, because I am not welcome here in Australia.

DB,

"Upon this rock... I will build my Church" understanding this to mean Peter...the first 'Pope' "

"... and that which is bound on Earth shall have been [exceptional present-past tense] bound in Heaven." It the basis for Papal infallibility. Catch is, the early Jesus cults were Jewish and the early Bishops Jews. Expanding that faith to the Gentiles had to do with being able re-enter the Holy Lands after the religious Jews were expelled by Rome. [Many settled in Pella] That Church could not have a Jewish leader.

Institutionalisation and standardisation of the J. cults was consolidated at Nicaea were creeds and doctrines of an organised religion were finalised by very human men.

Cathoilc or not Catholic Christian priesthoods and clergy are happy to wear the guise of "holymen" representing God, without any justification.

[If Herod wanted Jesus dead, he could have paid some thugs to kill him. Pilate would have been unlikely to have been involved as depicted in the Bible, and, if he were, there is no what he would risked a riot by crucifying three people on the Jewish Passover, in occupied lands.]

Jewish Messiahism was about resistence from occupation [Rome and Greeks before them]. Islam's unification of the Arabs was defence against political and religious encouchments.

Wow, Stephany, you really know how to stick to the topic. And great to see your knowledge of Muslim history only extends to the Ottoman period of decline.

So tell us, Stephany, why did Muslims decline? Obviously the topic at hand is too hard for you to discuss. You might as well share with us your expertise about the Ottomans who were the first Muslim empire to successfully institutionalise the ulama. And where did they get this idea from? Perhaps it was from the same Orthodox Christian world where they got their mosque architecture from.

I realise this is hard for you to believe, Stephany, but civilisations actually borrow from each other. Perhaps in your mind, one can separate and demarcate civilisations and peoples and legal traditions. But in the real world, things don't happen that way.

Anyway, I guess you'll be telling us all about some research project you're involved in to prove that all Imams this side of the milky way believe the earth is flat. Or perhaps some new conspiracy. It's become fashionable in some circles to find conspiracies wherever there are people with even an incidental link to Islam.