What’s good for the Islamic goose is clearly not good for the secular humanist gander. What a bunch of hyprocites most of those from the humanist schools are! Apply your arguements to yourselves and your own godless religion.

What Irfan,Islam George Pell,Sheik Hilaly and the Pope want is power over ordinary people.They lasiviate in our fear and ignorance.

Irfan just plays his little games of equivocation trying to impose Islam on all of us.

The only true religion is that of logic and science which has freed us from poverty and drudgery.Show me where in the Bible or Koran a system of logic that equates to that of science.In fact the religions have done everything in their power to destroy logic since it frees people from it's clutches.

If you want to be truely free and spiritual,think for yourself.Religions have been built upon lies and distortions and mostly brings misery to our humanity.

coach,

If God is all powerful, why was substitutionary ransom even necessary? Would say God cannot forgive sin without Attonement. If so, It is not God.

Irfan, you certainly enjoy enjoy a fight don't you? Is your hero Don Quixote? Tilting your lance at Islam, at Hillali, at Christians, at atheist, at secularists and countless others.
You claim that church and state seperated at the time of Mighty Mo's death. Maybe, but you forgot to tell the Moslem brotherhood in Iran, Iraq,Turkey, etc. You got yourself some real baggage there Irfan.
And as for your equating Islam with progressive western thought- there 'aint enough asses in Arabia to carry that load of old cobblers around.
Good luck in your labours Irfan.

Dear Francis.. "Indulgences not a sacremant"

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

Its a VERY fine line between it 'being' a sacrament and it being CLOSELY LINKED TO one.... read the last couple of lines on this link I provided above.

AIME.. differences between Pell and Hilali are located in the founder and foundations of what they stand for.

Hilali would be quite comfortable with political assasinations of the enemies of Muslims, because Mohammad did it. Pell would be unhappy with that because Jesus never did such a thing, he relied on the power of the Gospel and His word, not murder, to extend the kingdom.

Francis, Luther is not my hero, his antisemitism and foul language are surely not 'fruit of the Spirit' so..I'm guessing he had some 'off' days:)

IRF.. well..you didn't call me names this time.. hmmmm maybe it's because I basically agree with your point? I'll see what you call me next time I disagree :) (I have compiled quite a list you know)

MOSQUE and STATE. I disagree that 'Islam' teaches separation, you refer to the history as if it is a canonical situation. MOhammad was building a political structure from the moment he entered Medina, and any departure from that pattern would clearly be 'un' Islamic (but not 'Un Muslim' if you get my drift.
Muslims can do what they like. Their actions must be judged by the Sunnah, and the Quran, and Hadith. So, quite clearly Mosque IS the State.
The confusion about this in suceeding Caliphates is due to the confusion in Mohammad and Islam as a system.

I refer you to this:

http://www.revision-notes.co.uk/revision/35.html

5. In Islam politics are meant to be consensual and the laws must be in conformity with the Koran and Sharia, development of political parties that don’t accept this is not allowed.
6. All law must be based upon the Sharia.

The Mechanics of government might not be the Imam, but if Laws are to reflect Sharia, then who is the real boss ?:) clearly the Imam, the waver of the verbal 2 x 4 over the head of the (so called)ruler.

As a "universal kafir" I can sit this one out except to say a pox on both your houses.

The real world is so much more exciting, interesting and intriguing than the superstitions of Islam and Catholicism that I cannot understand why anyone bothers.

Every time we build a new instrument we learn something new. What will the Large Hadron Collider reveal?

http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/

The Gamma-ray Large Area Space Telescope (GLAST) will provide the first test of a theory of quantum gravity.

http://www-glast.stanford.edu/

Will we at last succeed in bringing gravity within the quantum theory fold or is there some deeper theory waiting to be discovered?

What in the koran or bible could possibly be more weird, bizarre and intriguing than the delayed choice quantum eraser?

http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scully/kim-scully-web.htm

It calls into question all our notions of space / time reality.

Then, of course, there's the biggie. Biogenesis. How did life on Earth start? Much speculation but little hard fact.

A whole new science, epigenetics, has sprung up in the past half decade. There's more to inheritance than DNA.

With functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) we're at last getting some real answers about the way our brains work.

With all this going on who cares about the rants of a seventh century tribal chieftain?