Israel: an illegitemate nation born of terrorism - no wonder it is recognised as the cause of middle east tension, conflict, and hatred.

It has been long apparent that the only thing the Jews learnt from the holocaust was how to do the same thing to someone else.

Dear Manny

The fact that you chose to use the term 'Israeli Arabs' before proceeding to state they 'have full access to education, health, social security, all governmental offices. They can stand for election and take their seats in the Parliament, worship as they please and are totally equal before the law, backed up by a rigorous and scrupulous judiciary' means that you are nothing more than a wilful propagandist.

All of what you have said is true but you have clearly and knowingly misrepresented the position of former President Carter who clearly stated that his apartheid comments refered only to the non Israeli Arabs controlled by Israel living in the Occupied Territories who have none of these rights.

Israel and the Jewish community has much to be proud of. Misrepresentation by ommision of the plight of occupied Palestinians is not one of them.

You can fool some of the people some of the time.

Israel was not born out of terrorism, it was born, from the British Mandate for Palestine, which is still valid and in force under UN Charter Article 73. It is in fact the so-called "Palestinians" in Gaza and Judea/Samaria who are the occupiers of Israeli land. They have no claim to that land except as agreed to under treaties, which have a number of requirements to be met. So far, the arab antagonists, whether so-called "Palestinians" or their masters outside, have not met their requirements under any such treaties; hence the only valid document is the League of Nation's British Mandate for Palestine.

The argument should go from there, but of course, that wouldn't suit the pro-so_called-"Palestinians", so they cherry pick starting points in the debate that suit their position. But even such cherry picked starting points need an inversion of the truth and reality to support the so-called "Palestinians" right to exist as a nation.

Funny, these so-called "Palestinians" weren't so nationalistic under Jordan's occupying force after their invasion of 1948. And isn't Jordan itself an interesting discussion point in this debate.

But keep screaming, whining, moaning and groaning to your heart's content - at some point you have got to wake up and smell the disgusting evil that is the so-called "Palestinian" ideology : where death is valued over life, where child abuse is celebrated, all supported by the West thanks to your efforts. Oh and come on, admit it, you get your rocks off from all those vile horror pics of the innocents dying they organise just for your viewing pleasure.

I am very sorry that Reynard wrote those comments earlier. It is tempting to recommend them for removal, because they are so mindlessly hurtful, but free speech requires openness to spee freech.

What Reynard has done is a particularly nasty version of the same mistake as Manny Waks: generalising a Jewish opinion based on the foreign policy outlook of Israel. Without anything but the most anecdotal evidence to back my claim, I reckon there is less coherence of opinion among Australia's Jewish population than their Arabic/Islamic equivalents. Sometimes incoherence is very healthy.

As an Israel loyalist, Waks would do better to ask whether the comparison with Apartheid means that Israel has a public relations problem equivalent to South Africa after the jailing of Mandela. Will the University of London elect an Intifadah leader President of its student union? Will the ill-formed cultural boycotts of Israeli scholarship, tourism, sports, etc. start to take a genuinely effective form?

B'nai Brith cares deeply about the "defamation" of Israel, but the opinion polls suggest an awareness that there is much right and much wrong on both sides of this struggle. What is more, they show that pretty much the whole world cares about it. That suggests the issue will not die out of its own accord: it needs active resolution.

Comparisons, as someone once said, are odious - never more so than in this article. The horrific events in various countries quoted such as Darfur, Somalia etc are internal events and have little effect outside their own borders. A million deaths by violence or starvation in an african nation will not plunge the world into global war. However, the very existence of Israel is seen by millions of western fundamentalist christians, George Bush and John Howard included, as the forerunner of a god-directed final world wide catastrophic destruction of everything and everybody except those fortunate few deemed to be 'righteous' in the eyes of god. When alleged biblical prophecy is accepted as 'god's plan' by so many people, the prophecy becomes self fullfilling - fuelled by shared expectations. Atomic arsenals not-withstanding, Israel and the associated Zionism is the real and total threat to world peace - a threat directed and encouraged not by Jews but by the avowed followers of the 'Prince of Peace'. The arbitary displacement of thousands of legitimate Palestinian citizens occasioned by the Balfour declaration backed by UN sanctions was and still is an essential part of the process. All middle-east strife and the associated rise of militant Islam can, either directly or indirectly, long or short term, largely be attributed to the forced establishment of the bastard state 'legitimised' by biblical fiat.

What I despise is the propaganda pushed down our throats which tries to pass off Israeli violence and land-grabbing as meek self-defence.

Despite right-wing diatribes to the contrary, no one in Australia is suggesting that the aggressive states surrounding Israel are saintly or peaceful. Neither are we supporting them with money and weapons, as we are with Israel*.

Israel should be viewed as just another Iran, or Iraq, or Palestine: an extension of Middle-Eastern tribalism which uses all the leverage it can muster to grab land and resources for its own use. This nonsense about Israel being an island of peace and enlightenment is just that: rubbish.

Everything Israel's neighbours have done to it, Israel has done back, but with more money, more weapons, and more support overseas.

*with the obvious exceptions of Alexander Downer, the Australian Wheat Board, Donald Rumsfeld, the CIA, and Ronald Reagan. Perhaps I should have said "openly supporting".