Israel: an illegitemate nation born of terrorism - no wonder it is recognised as the cause of middle east tension, conflict, and hatred.

It has been long apparent that the only thing the Jews learnt from the holocaust was how to do the same thing to someone else.

Dear Manny

The fact that you chose to use the term 'Israeli Arabs' before proceeding to state they 'have full access to education, health, social security, all governmental offices. They can stand for election and take their seats in the Parliament, worship as they please and are totally equal before the law, backed up by a rigorous and scrupulous judiciary' means that you are nothing more than a wilful propagandist.

All of what you have said is true but you have clearly and knowingly misrepresented the position of former President Carter who clearly stated that his apartheid comments refered only to the non Israeli Arabs controlled by Israel living in the Occupied Territories who have none of these rights.

Israel and the Jewish community has much to be proud of. Misrepresentation by ommision of the plight of occupied Palestinians is not one of them.

You can fool some of the people some of the time.

Israel was not born out of terrorism, it was born, from the British Mandate for Palestine, which is still valid and in force under UN Charter Article 73. It is in fact the so-called "Palestinians" in Gaza and Judea/Samaria who are the occupiers of Israeli land. They have no claim to that land except as agreed to under treaties, which have a number of requirements to be met. So far, the arab antagonists, whether so-called "Palestinians" or their masters outside, have not met their requirements under any such treaties; hence the only valid document is the League of Nation's British Mandate for Palestine.

The argument should go from there, but of course, that wouldn't suit the pro-so_called-"Palestinians", so they cherry pick starting points in the debate that suit their position. But even such cherry picked starting points need an inversion of the truth and reality to support the so-called "Palestinians" right to exist as a nation.

Funny, these so-called "Palestinians" weren't so nationalistic under Jordan's occupying force after their invasion of 1948. And isn't Jordan itself an interesting discussion point in this debate.

But keep screaming, whining, moaning and groaning to your heart's content - at some point you have got to wake up and smell the disgusting evil that is the so-called "Palestinian" ideology : where death is valued over life, where child abuse is celebrated, all supported by the West thanks to your efforts. Oh and come on, admit it, you get your rocks off from all those vile horror pics of the innocents dying they organise just for your viewing pleasure.

I am very sorry that Reynard wrote those comments earlier. It is tempting to recommend them for removal, because they are so mindlessly hurtful, but free speech requires openness to spee freech.

What Reynard has done is a particularly nasty version of the same mistake as Manny Waks: generalising a Jewish opinion based on the foreign policy outlook of Israel. Without anything but the most anecdotal evidence to back my claim, I reckon there is less coherence of opinion among Australia's Jewish population than their Arabic/Islamic equivalents. Sometimes incoherence is very healthy.

As an Israel loyalist, Waks would do better to ask whether the comparison with Apartheid means that Israel has a public relations problem equivalent to South Africa after the jailing of Mandela. Will the University of London elect an Intifadah leader President of its student union? Will the ill-formed cultural boycotts of Israeli scholarship, tourism, sports, etc. start to take a genuinely effective form?

B'nai Brith cares deeply about the "defamation" of Israel, but the opinion polls suggest an awareness that there is much right and much wrong on both sides of this struggle. What is more, they show that pretty much the whole world cares about it. That suggests the issue will not die out of its own accord: it needs active resolution.

Comparisons, as someone once said, are odious - never more so than in this article. The horrific events in various countries quoted such as Darfur, Somalia etc are internal events and have little effect outside their own borders. A million deaths by violence or starvation in an african nation will not plunge the world into global war. However, the very existence of Israel is seen by millions of western fundamentalist christians, George Bush and John Howard included, as the forerunner of a god-directed final world wide catastrophic destruction of everything and everybody except those fortunate few deemed to be 'righteous' in the eyes of god. When alleged biblical prophecy is accepted as 'god's plan' by so many people, the prophecy becomes self fullfilling - fuelled by shared expectations. Atomic arsenals not-withstanding, Israel and the associated Zionism is the real and total threat to world peace - a threat directed and encouraged not by Jews but by the avowed followers of the 'Prince of Peace'. The arbitary displacement of thousands of legitimate Palestinian citizens occasioned by the Balfour declaration backed by UN sanctions was and still is an essential part of the process. All middle-east strife and the associated rise of militant Islam can, either directly or indirectly, long or short term, largely be attributed to the forced establishment of the bastard state 'legitimised' by biblical fiat.

What I despise is the propaganda pushed down our throats which tries to pass off Israeli violence and land-grabbing as meek self-defence.

Despite right-wing diatribes to the contrary, no one in Australia is suggesting that the aggressive states surrounding Israel are saintly or peaceful. Neither are we supporting them with money and weapons, as we are with Israel*.

Israel should be viewed as just another Iran, or Iraq, or Palestine: an extension of Middle-Eastern tribalism which uses all the leverage it can muster to grab land and resources for its own use. This nonsense about Israel being an island of peace and enlightenment is just that: rubbish.

Everything Israel's neighbours have done to it, Israel has done back, but with more money, more weapons, and more support overseas.

*with the obvious exceptions of Alexander Downer, the Australian Wheat Board, Donald Rumsfeld, the CIA, and Ronald Reagan. Perhaps I should have said "openly supporting".

israel was established in the usual way of new nations: the previous owners were killed or driven out by terrorist acts. the british mandate government got tired of being a target as well: 90+ dead in one bomb attack at the king david hotel. eventually,the zionists were in possession of israel, and the murder squads were subsumed in haganah, their leaders later to prime ministers of israel.

unfortunately, like poor dubya on the aircraft carrier, mission was not accomplished. there were a lot of angry moslems in the middle east, many of whom had lost all reason to live, save revenge.

there will be no peace in the middle east until sanity prevails in israel, or those disposessed arabs convert to buddhism. neither seems likely.

Is anyone else noticing a pattern from Mr Waks?

Modus operandi: Step 1) find a report that damns Israel as being among the worst.

Step 2) Point out that yes, there are worse regimes.

Step 3) Therefore, we should ease up on Israel.

B'nai Bith is a PR machine - it is quite literally, an apologist for Israeli actions.

The problem I have with Waks, is this kind of approach. I've never believed the 'but they're worse' argument, it's simply an excuse to keep misbehaving.

Perhaps if Waks focused more on positive Israeli moves toward reconciliation and gestures of peace then I might have more time for him. But of course, that's more challenging and requires a concerted effort on behalf of Israel. When the finger is pointed at you, it's much easier to point back.

Get a new approach Mr Waks. This one's getting tired, old and transparent.

Why is any commentary critical of the policies of the government of Israel so often smeared as being 'anti-Semitic'? I have a negative opinion of many of the policies of the government of Israel but I do not consider my views to be anti-Semitic and would be upset that anyone should believe them to be.
I am highly critical of many of the policies of the various Arab governments as well but apparently stand in no danger of being labelled anti-Semitic, even though the Arabs themselves are a Semitic people as well.

A taste of what Resist has to offer regarding Israel:

What If Israel Had Never Been Created?
http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5132

Israeli Lobby - The Report
http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2275

Israel set war plan more than a year ago
http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3459

Behind the Israeli Propaganda
http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3614

Why Do Israelis Keep Posing as Arab Terrorists?
http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3615

Israeli Spying: The Mother of all Scandals
http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3469

Reynard,

You need to read some history - including a study of the Balfour Declaration, the White Paper, the Report of the Palestinian Royal Commission regarding the Maritime plain in 1913, The Weizmann- Emir Faisal (leader of the Arab nationalist movement) Agreement at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, despatches between Lawrence and Whitehall about the Hashomite family and war with Turkey.

Unlike "artificial" Arab states (conceived as puppet states) drawn up with a ruler and pencil by colonial (imperial) interests in offices far away; states which have not only multiplied from the original 7 in 1948 to a bloc of 18 by 1972, but have also witnessed more bloodbaths between and within them, than attacks on Israel, Israel was created legitimately by negotiation and UN Mandate. As for wars with neighbouring regions, Israel has never initiated these.

In 1948, Arab states, along with Britain, attacked the fledgling Jewish state of Israel, and lost "magnificently" (albeit the British sniffing the wind pulled out earlier, but gave their weaponary to the Arabs). In an attempt to find someone to blame for this disaster, the resulting Iraq Government Commission found that only 4% of Palestinian Arabs of military age took up arms. Israel lost 10% of its entire Jewish population.

Israel is the only democracy in the region. Of Israel’s population of 7 million, 76.1% are Jewish, 16.2% Islamic Arabs, 2.1% Christian, and 1.6% Druze, the remaining 3.9% others. Arab Israelis enjoy equal rights with Jews, as do all Israelis, including the right to vote for both sexes, and representation in the Knesset. If the Arab countries had accepted the idea of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, it would be commemorating its 60th anniversary.

Also, Reynard, if you bothered to do your homework, you would know that the Arab League has called for the recognition of Israel and its right to exist. Unlike you, the Arab League recognise that 1.2 billion Muslims have nothing to fear from 7 million Israelis.

Oh please why do we have to suffer over and over this type of biased, opinionated, under-researded, factless, base Israeli propaganda.

Demos,

You want to look at the British and Jewish association in “Palestine”!

The Jewish Hagganah, a para-military group, protected British interests against the Arab revolt of 1936-1939.

When Britain faced with German Invasion by Rommel’s forces in North Africa, they desparately sought assistance from the Haganah (Palmach), without which the British would have been defeated.

In 1943, the British created the Jewish Brigade of 5,000 deploying them in Italy in September 1944.

However, the British did not reciprocate protection. In 1939, whilst imposing quotas and restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine (unfortunately, survivors of Nazi camps) the British actively imported Arab labour from other parts of the Middle East.

Understandably, Jews felt betrayed.Yet, even then, the Hagganah helped the British to arrest, interogate, and in some cases deport the Irgun, a Jewish activist group, which occurred during the Saison (or hunting season)

As for the bomb attack by the Irgun on King David Hotel's south wing (British HQ), the British received two phone warnings beforehand, but typically ignoring them as “preposterous” did not evacuate the hotel. The result, ninety one people killed.

As for Israel's supposed land grabs, why did Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in May 2000? Instead of seeing it as an an act of peace, both Syria and Iran saw this a sign of weakness. Hezbollah's secretary, General Hasan Nasrallah immediately uttered yet another war cry.

Keith,

Patently, you are completely ignorant about this subject, so you use abuse. I suppose it is better for readers to think you are very stupid - than you try and contribute - and confirm it.

You are a classic study of neuro-scientists’ “confirmation bias.” And it’s Pavlovian! The mere mention of Israel and you all come out of the woodwork.

Can I please have a clarification on the definition of 'democracy' as applied to Israel? I thought Israel was a relgion-based state using the morals and strictures of the Old Testament - not perhaps a theocracy, but not democracy as I understand it.
This is a serious question - I become very confused when I read that Israel is a democratic island in the midst of non-democratic states. Is it?
Diana Day

Diana, I've asked this question before and it will not be answered directly. It will be sidestepped or rationalized if it gets any response at all. You will be accused of being anti-Israel.

Israel is a Jewish State and will be democratic whilst the majority of the population remains Jewish.

Unfortunately for Israel, the majority of Jewish people live outside of Israel. The Arabs still living in Israel have a much higher birth rate than the Jewish Israelis. The non-Jewish citizens of Israel are growing in numbers, but the Jewish are not.

This is a little issue of which it is not polite to speak of or ask questions about. It is not nice to ask if the democratic rights are equally enjoyed by non-Jewish citizens. For instance, if you marry a non-Israeli, can your spouse live with you in Israel? If you are Jewish or your spouse is, not a problem. Not so if you practice another faith. Including Christian by the way. Don't be deluded that it is only directed at Muslims.

Dannielle

Your personal abusive attack is reprehensible.

While I decry the views expressed you attack, not my views, but me and my motives.

Why are you so special that you can feel justified in undertaking such a course. Most forums would see your comments for what they are and your uncivil views would be deleted.

Perhaps you might obtain a greater perspective and much broader view if you'd actucally made yourself familiar with my views on the topic. Yep some are on the public record.

Here

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5358

Here's hoping your disposition and propensity to assume and then personally abuse undergoes the necessary adult change.

Dannielle..keep up with the well researched information cobber!

DIANA... Israel is definitely NOT based on the Old Testament in its legal system.

Israel consists of various pressure groups like most countries.
1/ Orthodox Jews..
2/ Socialists/Atheists
3/ Secularists of various political persuasions.

There seems to be a degree of competition between Jews from Eastern Europe and the more 'semitic' ones from the local area. This is reflected in the political machinations from what I gather.

IF....Israel was run along Old Testament lines, I assure you, there would be not a hint of the 'vile abomination of desolation' on Temple mount (i.e. the mosques) but...watch this space (or..that one) and see how things unfold over the next few decades.

Just to give an idea of how many of the Jews 'feel' about the land, there was a documentary on CNN last night about the 6 day war, and the Jews who went to Hebron, the location of Abrahams tomb, said "Every rock and blade of grass had vibrance of their history".

Even I myself, after reading the Old Testament, specially Genesis and Exodus, my goodness.. I feel a longing for the place as well. I can totally identify with those feelings. I strongly recommend a read of at least Genesis 12 to the end of the book, the story of Joseph, Jacob the brothers.. its a great story as stories go. Of course the greatest part of the story is the redeeming Grace of God.

KEITH.. please view 'Obsession' the rise of radical Islam.
See the Palestinian imam screaming hysterically:

"We once ruled the world, we will do it again. We will rule the White house, we will rule the UK"

Hmmmmmm... I'm sure I've heard THAT kind of rhetoric b4.. from one Adolph HITLER.
And just for a finisher, I suppose you knew that the Wafen SS included 2 divisions of Bosnian Muslims, as a result of the Mufti of Jerusalem visiting Hitler... yep..the 'nazi' connection and 'nazi' mentality is strong and alive and well today.

Manny Waks,

Some think that Israel is not a country but simply a location for money laundering rackets and an offshore tax haven. Israels bombing of Aussies visiting Lebanon last year was a war crime.

While Iran (a former ally of the USA under the Shah) is troublesome one has to remember that the USA aided Saddam in its war with Iran in the 1980's so it is no wonder Iran hates the USA. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan which was the catalyst for Islamic fundamentalism.

The real "Axis of Evil" is Israel, the USA and the USSR/Russia.

Mr Waks you pathetic grandstanding in Melbourne over petty problems on public transport does not impress. Jews do get insulted but so do many others. I have been abused by a drunk on a tram when I told him not to light a cigarette in a tram and earlier when I told a youth to remove his feet from a seat so a lady could sit down but, so what, I got results and "sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt you" Manny.

I can understand the emotional attachment to historical Israel. I myself have a romantic attachment to Ireland and England due to my ancestory. However I do not claim to own any land there on the basis of my historical attachment. In the final analysis you can site any historical agreement you wish, the truth is that the recognized process in International Law for incorporating captured land into a state is to annex it.
For reasons of its own Israel has never annexed Gaza and the West Bank which it captured in 1967. In other words to this day Israel does not consider this land to be legally part of the state of Israel.
The occupants of this land (who choose to call themselves Palestinians) live onder military occupation and military government. They are stateless but live under the control of the Isreali occupying forces. No recognized state lays legal claim to these areas.
It is the occupied Palestinians who President Carter had in mind when he used the word 'Aparthiet' to refer to Israeli Arabs in this context is obscurantism.

Balfour very responsible for this after signing the declaration in 1917, I am now just devasted at the sheer contributions on behalf of America, Israel and now the EU in supplying Fatah with funds in order to eradicate the other half of the Palestinian population - Hamas.

Israel is the first country to deny right to return passage to refugees, it uses demolishion as a collective form of punishment and has the highest number of ethically cleansed villages throughout the world. Myself being a youth am concerned about the future and what we will be subjected to bear witness to in our later lives, we are already witnessing fascism, discrimination, illegal occupation, apartheid walls and segregation and not to mention illegal wars.

The owner of the land can be traced back to Saladin and the Crusades, or even further if you wish, either or, Israel does not bear much right to it, the Holy land will be forever in dispute- this is just a fact.

For those pro Israeli's and those critising others being concerned about the welfare of the Palestinian people - having a bias western view, why so many people chose to turn a blind eye baffles me. One view could be that another influence was from the Neo Cons and the Regan government with presenting the world with nightmares in the form of terrorism - which now is becoming a reality.

This is definately in effect as to how people think today, both Western and Israeli - majority seeing Arabs and Muslims as all fitting into the mould, but they neglect what they themselves are doing and seeing it as all being justified and for a righteous cause. Much of the media proves this as well

OliviaAC,

First of all, “Saladin”, Salaaheddin Ayyubi, was a Kurd, ethnically related to Iran (Persia), he was not an Arab. Saladin is of the 12th century (AD). The history of the region goes far, far back than this. The archaeology of the area provides a lot of information.

Olivia,

I will tell you what I used to tell my students at university. Question, question, question; do your research well, study and interogate your texts, and always refer back to primary sources wherever possible.

I told my students to question what I said, to question the lectures they received, to question what their parents and family told them, to question what their friends said, and to question the media - not only what is written, but also the photographs and film - photographs can be cropped and altered; also film can present a distortion of events.

I told them that if they presented an argument well, with supporting evidence, they would be marked accordingly, even if it differed from my point of view. I was challenged by the head of my department for this, but remained adamant. At the end of the year my students were marked by other academics. Not only did my students have more Distinctions than any other group, but none received less than a Credit. Most importantly, they had learnt how to use their intellect.

If the Arab States (and Britain) had accepted the two-state solution in 1948, the Palestinians would be nigh on celebrating their 60th anniversary as an independent state alongside the legitimate UN mandate State of Israel. Many conferences since have been held to enable such a solution. You can research these and evaluate the outcomes for yourself.

I would suggest that you particularly research the period of Arafat’s reign, the findings after he died,and how and why the Hamas got elected. The Hamas, a radical, extremist, Islamic group have sworn to bring Sharia law into every household. Study the issues, actions by various groups, and results of the Riyadh summit meeting which was held March 28-29, this year.

Dannielle,

When I was referring to Saladin I was referring to the fact that he was Muslim not Jewish.

I have read many things and formulated my own opinion of the situation and do question it, although Hamas are referred to as extremists often, Fatah were willing to side with Israel and the US to have control. In the year Arafat took over – who was a member of Fatah yes they carried out close to 2,500 “terrorist” attacks on Israel – that could be classified as an extremist act also.

Today alone they have kidnapped 150 Hamas members, burnt down all the hamas related universities, homes, medical centres etc in the West Bank. Abbas is calling for a new election as Hamas are supposed to be in control despite their leader being murdered, which will now be as reliant as the way America’s politics are run presently. Is it just?

I have read information regarding the al-Nakba, al-Naksa and the Suez war. I am not taking sides with the Palestinian government or political views of either party because at times both were in the wrong; my only concern is for the country to be able to exist as a whole when the western world won't acknowledge their place anytime in the near future. Nor are they going to stop adding fuel to the fire by turning the country against each other.

I don’t see Mr Howard getting involved, it is quite clear Bush and the remainders of congress is corrupt and are easily paid off and as for the English their government is in limbo at the moment. So what happens next, nothing, the situation will remain as it is, the other western countries are too much of a minority to generate an end to it, and the other half of the Palestinian population being Hamas will be wiped out inevitably but by their own kind to save Israel from doing it themselves. It truly is a situation which is in despair.

Olivia,

Good. At least you are reading, but you need to read more. Look at the proposals that have been put forward at the various summits. Also, read about the findings about Arafat's financial dealings and position prior to his death. Also, look at the state that the Palestinians were in during his reign and ask why? Ask why Arafat refused a peace with Israel. Keep on asking the right questions and you well get there. Study the various Palestinian/Israeli summit meetings and the outcomes.

There has been no Israeli presence in Gaza since 2005; they dismantled all their settlements and removed their military and left the region; they also left industrial complexes for the Palestinians to take over. Importantly, look at the primary sources.
As for Israel, look at the percentages of Jews compared with others, compare the rights of all; look at who make up most of the border police, and ask why. Keep on looking at primary sources.

Find out the situation between the the Arab League and Hamas and where Hamas gets its money for weaponary. Ask how and why they are treating their own people this way. Keep on the questioning. Olivia, you are doing well. Look at the Islamic makeup of the West Bank and that of the Hamas. Look at the relationship between the Arab League and Israel.

cont ...