In not excepting the equality of women Islam miss treats them.
Those who wish to look deeper should be appalled at what they find, yes Islam miss teats females.
Those from the left of left who deny these facts betray a fundamental of the left of center that all people should be treated as one

I know, lets have a new name, we can be the; Infidel/ Dissident - anti Proletariat Republic of Australasia and a Looter free zone;
And become the International Paradise; out side of the Ideological Utopian Twilight Zone.

Sounds good, but can we achieve it?

Irfan,

I don't know what Ayaan Hirsi Ali thinks about Jews. Presumably she has not said anything in public or you would have quoted her instead of van Gogh.

Now consider the following two statements:

(1) Hirsi Ali collaborated with a Jew hating film maker

(2) Hirsi Ali is telling the truth about Islam.

The two statements are not mutually exclusive.

BOTH can be true.

Van Gogh's comments on Jews are a red herring. Your introduction of van Gogh's statements about Jews into this debate tells us more about Irfan than about Hirsi Ali. If you cannot rebut your opponent then smear her. If you cannot smear her directly do it by association.

Irfan,

Do you, like Nada Roude of the NSW Islamic Council, believe that Muhammed is a "no-go-zone" who should be immune from criticism?

(The Australian 29 May 2007)

Do you think the Australian government should deny Hirsi Ali a visa?

"Like the religious extremists she decries, Hirsi Ali believes there is only one Islam, and that it advocates violence and misogyny."

Shakira appears to believe there are many brands of "Islam"..ok.. fair enough, there is the "original" then there are the "China made fakes" right?

It seems that Islam is not as robust as Muslims would have us think, there are many versions. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Ismaili.. then the version from Pakistan where some dill claims to be the FINAL (yes.. really) "last messenger" and he even has a strong following.. just shows.. invent a nutty religion and you will get followers. In his case it all hinges on a variation of interpretation of ONE single verse in the Quran.

But nothing changes the core elements. Where did they come from?
One account has Omar (later 2 become Caliph) suggesting this or that would be good.. and VOILA. "Revelation" arrives soon after in accordance with Omar's suggestions. Amazing stuff.

http://www.bogvaerker.dk/Bookwright/Umar.html

THE AGREEMENTS OF (THE VIEWS OF) OMAR (AND THE SUBSEQUENT CONFIRMATORY REVELATIONS IN THE QURAN)

Some of them make them amount to more than twenty.

Mujahid said: 'Umar used to hold a view and Qur'an would be revealed with (confirmation of) it.

'Ali said: In the Qur'an there are some of the views of 'Umar.

Ibn 'Umar said: When people said one thing and 'Umar said another, the Qur'an would be revealed with the like of what 'Umar said.

COMMENT: Not a bad trick if you can get away with it.

"AussieLarrikin" the 'character' says the following:

(Mohammad speaking) "Omar.. that's pretty good mate.. hang on a tick let me goto my bedroom .. OK! I'm back...and guess WHAT? -Allah just told me that too". (AussieLarrikin wonders why Allah needed help from Omar)

Now back to BD the 'me' person.

If the Quran says 'a-b-c' is Islam and Shakira says 'd-e-f' is Islam, I think the Quran wins.

And the Quran says "If you have (sexual) pleasure from a woman, make sure you pay her" (words to that effect 4:24)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_Mut'ah

Now...there is another 'name' for that practice.

"She challenges Muslims to debate her..." Moderate Muslim need to stand in solidarity with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, rather than the usual knee-jerk reaction of condemning her for speaking out.

Horus said this about Irfan: "I seriously doubt you experience too many pangs about the injustices suffered by the Jews. I suggest the Jewish argument is merely something you employ to sustain your mask of objectivity. Reading between your lines, you seem stoically indifferent to the worldwide injustices suffered by minorities in Islamic communities".

I can only concur with this statement especially the last sentence. In another OLO forum I asked Mr. Irfan whether or not he would he show solidarity with people who are being oppressed by Muslims in many countries around the globe.

His response was to ignore that completely and immediately launch into a tirade about Western Christians "rabbiting on" about the plight of Arab Christians and yet being strangely silent about the plight of Arab Christians at the hands of those pesky Israeli Jews.

While I admit that Israel does not have a particularly good record in protecting Christian rights in the Occupied Territories, their record is infinitely better vis-a-vis Christain minorities than any of the Muslim majority countries that surround them.

So the question is posed again, Irfan. Do you feel any solidarity with the Christian or other non-Muslim minorities who are marginalised, victimised and vilified in Muslim-majority countries?