"I'd say since it is the womens choice whether she has sex and not the mans"

Aqva, that might be true, but you know as well as I do, that there
are plenty of men who will push every emotional button available,
use all sorts of mind altering substances and other tricks, to
get girls into bed. They are the first to run away, when any
kind of responsbility or co-payment for a kid is mentioned.

Mistakes happen, young women can be gullible, just because a girl
makes a mistake in her judgement, does not mean that she should not
have options. She has 400 chances to have a baby, she has to
decide when the time is right, nobody else. Ultimately she is left
holding the baby, nobody else, thats why I defend her right to
have an abortion, if thats what she decides.

Nope, I don't get emotional about zygotes. I'd rather focus
available resources on suffering people, of which there are plenty.
43 million women choose to have abortions each year, clearly they have
their reasons.

Yup, the first tremester ruling is just about standard in most of
the Western enlightened world and spreading to more and more third
world countries. The written law does not even need changing,
its applied law. Every time politicians try to change the written
law, we have more Catholic bishops getting their knickers in a twist,
so best to just get on with it and make sure that choice is available
to women in a safe and suitable medical environment, so that tens
of thousands of women each year don't die needlessly, as is still
the case in countries where the Catholic Church has a large influence.

PeterD, you are clearly out of touch with the real world out there.
When a woman is totally overwhelmed with problems of survival,
forcing her to raise yet another child in the name of religious
dogma, often those kids will land up abused and neglected. Its easy
for you to pontificate, from your cushy armchair. Clearly you
don't know what she is going through.

Just been following the extensive discussion about responsibility, from a safe distance, and am puzzled about an aspect of it.

There seems to be a push to put responsibility for pregnancy on a man. At least, on a shared basis.

It's not that I disagree: I see him responsible as a father in relation to the resulting pregnancy. However, the people who are most strident in placing this "responsibility" on him are also saying he isn't a father: after all, they are saying there is nothing for him to be a father of, and won't be for several months at least.

I think the people in this school of thought are trying to have their cake and eat it. If there is someONE to be the father of, then the man has a father's responsibility. If there is no-one, then he doesn't have that responsibility.

Or, are we being told that he is somehow responsible for the woman - who is, we are also told, sovereign? This strikes me as absurd.

After all, if the man tried to exercise some of this responsibility by pretending to some interest in the pregnancy (keeping it going, for example), he's told to mind his own business and is tried for treason for interfering with the woman's sovereignty.

Pax,

What about all the dogs that get euthanased each year? A dog has the intellectual capacity of a toddler according to recent research, and many would think them a bit smarter: Does this make killing a dog equivalent to killing a toddler? Would it be a lesser act to destroy the dog at an early stage of embryonic development?

Danielle,
There’s so much fire and brimstone flying around that I’m happy if someone wants to share a spot in the bull’s eye with me : ) Dull? Never!

Yvonne, excellent points.
I have heard that the reason why these requirements exist is because biological mothers request their children to go to healthy parents - so somehow we ended up with a list that can make it impossible to adopt for some unfortunate people.
I saw that many countries include length and weight on the list. There is no evidence that tall, slim people make better parents than short, overweight parents.

They seem to forget that any child would be much better off to grow up in a loving family rather than in an orphanage or institution. If overweight, short, or homosexual parents are seen as ‘unsuitable’ for looking after children, I wonder if orphanages employ fat, short, or homosexual carers.

Yabby,
Your replies to PeterD and aqvarivs were fantastic and I second what you said.

PeterD,
Do you have an honest answer to my hypothetical question: if you could save your or your child’s life by accepting medication derived from embryonic stem cell research, in where zygotes or blastocysts have been destroyed, you would refuse treatment and choose for you or your child to die?

Goodthief and aqvarivs,
Look at it from a different angle: men have always been complaining that women have so much control over their own fertility.
Men have felt ‘tricked’ if women forgot to take the pill and condoms are not highly reliable.

So imagine that this pill for men (perhaps it’s a cream rather than a pill) woul be widely available. Every time men take this pill, their sperm will be disabled or dead for the next 24 hours.
Wouldn’t that give men total peace of mind? Men will be fathers only if they choose to be. Both men and women will have equal control.
No more blaming women.

Fester,
Many religious zealots are obsessed only by human embryos- if it’s not human, or if it’s not an embryo, they don’t care much.

yvonne, you would find that women in general would rebel, and have unwanted children in the face of any legislation that put forward steps similar to adoption for perspective mothers. The numbers of unwanted children would rise as well as the abortion numbers. Any how it would never happen. The feminist who want the destruction of the family unit would rally hard to see such a concept that encouraged family unity and family forethought was defeated before it got off the ground. Though I must say it is something that deserves consideration. The Catholic Church had a standard premarital counseling. At one time it was pretty much mandatory and the Church could refuse to marry any couple refusing to sit down with their parish Priest and talk informally about their expectations regarding marriage and family. It was hoped that such third party premarital counseling would cut down on the rate of divorce and family violence. The ten big questions for premarital counseling are about money, sex, in-laws, chores, family time, addictions, abuse, fidelity and how long do you think the marriage will last? I've heard these questions being referred to as "deal breakers" because not being able or willing to discuss these questions is a huge signal that one or both are not prepared for the huge step that is marriage and family life.

The majority of couples don't want that or contraceptive education either. It kills the spontaneity. We don't need no stinking education man. We can always have an abortion.

Sorry, not yup, Yabby. There is no trimester ruling. And applied law is law. That the execution of the laws is lax and not strictly enforced does not mean that that interpretation is the law. A quick study of Australia's State and Territorial abortion laws will prove this out.

PeterD “Abortion is a choice. So are all other forms of child and adult abuse. Take your pick.”

Do you include the abuse of the rights of sentient individuals who disagree with your view or attempts to abuse the laws of this secular society by suborning it to the will of a religious minority?

Abuse can take many forms, the Church of Roman, in the course of its history, has become adept at most of them.

Aqvarivs “The majority of couples don't want that or contraceptive education either. It kills the spontaneity. We don't need no stinking education man. We can always have an abortion.”

What a sad condemnation and judgement of the “majority of couples”

I think such a statement deserves to be supported by some evidentiary research before anyone accepts it as anything other than bilious invective.

As one who would be considered among the “majority of couples”, I would say I after the birth of my second daughter I took the cut and had a vasectomy. Now all I fire is blanks but I am, at least, beyond that realm of concern regarding ever needing to ask a partner to have a quick abortion, not that I would have ever been likely to do such a thing anyway.

How people deal with the issues in their lives is up to them. We need the religiously inclined dictating to us as much as we need devil worshippers demanding we supply them with their sacrifices.

Footnote, I was not married in a Catholic Church, I hold no fealty to the ways of the papists and I need no one to dictate how, when and with whom I will cavort.