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The Forum > Article Comments > The abortion conundrum > Comments

The abortion conundrum : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 18/5/2007

Pro-choice advocates must remain eternally vigilant.

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The troublesome thing about many pro-lifers is that their involvement begins and ends with their personal moral view of the world and displays no empathy toward the parent or interest in the outcome.

For example, if a woman has a valid personal or medical reason for a termination the opponents never ever say “Have the child and I will personally contribute to the ongoing cost of medicine or treatment” or ”I will adopt the child and raise it as my own” or offer to undertake any involvement for the consequences.

No, they just exacerbate whatever moral suffering the woman has already gone through and are happy to subject others to a potential lifetime of misery - and simply go home feeling good about themselves for doing “the right thing”.

Many have surrendered personal responsibility for their own life-decisions to another authority yet in turn demand that others surrender the same choices to them.

Some claim to cherish the life of an unborn child yet are silent during wartime or support capital punishment.

How many make an active physical contribution toward looking after the sick or destitute or does their compassion for humanity begin before birth and end shortly afterward?

For every feel-good victory they announce, how many other lives have they ruined?

Until they demonstrate a vested personal interest in the outcome it’s more a display of moral arrogance and superiority.

The right-or-wrong decision is simply not theirs to make and not their burden to carry through life.
Posted by wobbles, Friday, 18 May 2007 2:48:49 PM
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People talk of abortion as if it is all one and the same. It isn't. I dare anyone to witness a partial birth abortion and declare that procedure anything other than murder. All men and women advocating abortion as a simple procedure with out residual emotional and physical consequences should have to view a partial birth abortion. It may not be the highest percentage of type of abortion technique given that about 85% of all abortions are performed before or at 12 weeks gestation. Everything less than 22 weeks gestation is considered nonviable (the shortest length of pregnancy after which a child born prematurely has a chance of survival. Generally, this ranges from 20-27 weeks.)However, such a experience might bring those having a loose interpretation of what constitutes life to refine their personal definition. Showing the woman the fetus after it's been taken from her womb might reduce the number of second and third and forth abortions some women have. Advocating for abortion to be seen no different to a trip to the dentist with out moral consequence is a political stance I can not endorse. I refuse to accept as some posters suggest, that this is because I'm a man. I know lot's of women who think as I do.
I'm not anti-abortion. I believe it has it's medical value and support the pro-choice line. I most definitely am not pro-abortion. I do question the necessity that 1/4 of all Australian pregnancies are terminated through abortion. I believe this very fact needs to be questioned by the Australian public in terms of moral and ethical behavior patterns.
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 18 May 2007 3:03:01 PM
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The thing about abortion is that at the end of the day the woman decides. It doesn't matter if the fetus is a living soul or a bunch of cells, because if the woman doesn't want it she can get rid of it, even if it is unlawful to do so.
And the social stigma of abortion may never vanish, no matter how hard the "pro-choice" side pushes for it to be socially accepted. Even if it was totally accepted socially, the woman is always the one who has to live with the decision and her own conscience.

So actually from a religious perspective, it is more the womans "soul" that could suffer from the act, not so much the unborn.

I think "pro-life" advocates would better serve if they turned their energies from damning to helping. Many do this already. Concentrate on the "pro-life" idea rather than "anti-abortion". Help these woman be able to survive the 9 months of pregnancy and then help find a suitable home for the child. Help make it not so much of a terrible, "life-ending" prospect for a woman to carry a baby to term and give birth when she doesn't want to raise it. Reduce the abortion rate by positive action rather than duress and damnation.
Save both their "souls".
Posted by Donnie, Friday, 18 May 2007 3:14:59 PM
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Daniel06 the unborn child is not recognized as an autonomous and independent human being, it is entirely dependent upon someone elses body and only has “rights” subordinate to the rights and choices of the occupant of the other persons body (viz the woman who is pregnant)

Re “Remember in Hitler's Germany many were considered sub-human/lesser-human “ References to Hitler is not a good debating tactic especially when

Hitler’s Germany made attempting to obtain an abortion a criminal offence punishable by death.

Runner “Murder will always be murder”

And abortion will be abortion - not murder – check the dictionary, the two definitions do not refer to the other in any way at all

As for “Warped morality” – morality is a subjective value and thus what is warped for some is straight for others.

For myself, I find the notion of paedophile priests being systematically protected by their bishops and religious hierarchy the most “warped” of all morality.

Divergences point is right on the money.

What is obvious is that it is a womans body which is carrying the embryo, until the moment of birth, when and only when, the (now) baby is recognized as a separate and autonomous individual.

What is also obvious is the woman is the first occupant of her own body and that woman has rights which pre-exist those of the embryo.

If that woman does not want to proceed with a pregnancy then it is her sovereign right to decide not to and it is no one else business or right to interfere, regardloess of how selfrighteous they might feel.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 18 May 2007 5:01:52 PM
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I've always been against abortion - don't really know why. My basic moral foundation lies in not doing harm. Once a couple have sex I see that as an acknowledgement that the possibility of a new life is eminent. So it’s at this point of commitment that decisions and care must be undertaken. Johnny Rotten (John Lyndon) said "We (the working class) never accept responsibility for our own lives and that is why we'll always be down trodden." And so it goes for all.

I question the feminist idea that it is a women’s issue. I think it is a humanist, or more precisely a non-gender, issue. We cannot set about making laws on the basis of sex or “ownership”. Unborn children are the responsibility and belong with their parents first and foremost but they are also the responsibility of all society. Perhaps, as a poster above suggested, the wider community need to take more responsibility when women and their partners find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy. The value of human life isn’t reflected in our laws.

Having said this, I really don’t see how it helps to slag off women as murderers. I think pro-abortionists need to try and understand why people, who see it as murder, get so angry. And the anti-abortionistsneed ask: “Do these women deserve to be treated this way? - to be guilt laden?” And the actions of the more radical anti-abortionist are a contradiction to the idea of pro-life. The women and men who find themselves with a pregnancy don’t make the laws – you do (supposedly).

What’s a soul?

I think Irish lass once said that God would accept an aborted baby because it was absolutely innocent. The baby’s soul would be born straight into the arms of God. Hmmm.

According to the Catholics, I’m an evil lost soul; according to the educated elite, I’m stupid; and according to the anti-feminists, I’m a retard; according to the rednecks, I’m all of the above; so before the gimmicks come out and start coating me off - I’d better go and hide their bastard pills.
Posted by ronnie peters, Friday, 18 May 2007 5:35:13 PM
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This seems to me to have been for the most part a very intelligent discussion. Hope of reconciliation between pro-life and pro-choice seems to be remote. There seems to be an assumption that we make up our minds by considering the facts and arriving at a logical decision - hence all the disputation about what is a soul, what is a life. I think that on the issue of abortion many of us have a deep conviction and then delve for arguments to prove the validity of our gut. I am not knocking this rationisation process, it is true for many issues. I happen to be pro-choice for purely pragmatic reasons. Who wants unwanted children? How can an unwanted child get a fair go? Why should an unwilling woman be required to have an unwanted child? At some arbitrary point we have to declare that a destruction of life be a murder and therefore forbidden. But that arbitrary point needs to be settled through democratic process. Souls, sacredness of life, right and wrong in an amoral universe, all these are rationalisations of what our gut is telling us, no more.
Posted by Fencepost, Friday, 18 May 2007 6:26:30 PM
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