Col Rouge, First you claim to be of the majority in thinking and than outline a minority life style and proactive contraceptive choice. Surely you could have found some real point of contention with out making yourself out a liar.

The Anti-Catholic dis means nothing to me. Your wasting words.

I wouldn't want you to take my word for anything, but young couples especially this day and age do not want to think about consequences of premarital sex or life partnership and marriage. They don't have to. All the outs are in place and responsibility for ones decisions minimised.

25%[+]all pregnancies terminated via surgical abortion
40%[+]all marriages end in divorce.

"About 100,000 abortions are performed each year in Australia — more than one for every three livebirths. Less than 2% of these abortions are for fetal abnormality, the others being for social or economic reasons."
-eMJA

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/04/1028157880312.html

This means 98% of Australian abortions are not for medical necessity but, rather more for undue attention and lack of forethought. Couch it in terms best suited to your conscience as you will. Same goes for the high divorce rate. Undue attention and lack of forethought.

Unwanted children, infanticide, abortions, child abuse, matricide, patricide, spousal abuse, and a lot of miscellaneous heartache and pain is down to undue attention and lack of forethought. Too bad you would rather argue semantics or whinge against Catholicism than take a hard look at the reality that is there for everyone to see.

There is only one possible alternative. Abortion is a great thing for society we've just been aborting the wrong babies. Now how do we go about making that correction? A crime free and peaceful society through abortion. With the right graphics I think it will sell. Maybe even offer drive through to hedge the numbers.

Celivia

I cannot understand why the prolifers claim moral superiority for their prescience of the great potential human beings profligately dispatched. (Though they have a blind spot for a much greater profligate destruction preconception.) But can prescience have any meaning at all or impart any value? For example, how might we humans value puppy dogs if it were known that they would evolve into a species of superior intellect and achievement? Is the microbe from which life evolved of more value than all humanity?

I think that a prescient projection of a human being into a human organism underlies much of the zealotry.

Aqvarivs

“... undue attention and lack of forethought.”

This sounds awefully school mam’ish:

First of all, statistics can be skewed. A number of women may, individually, use frequent abortion as their means of birth control - a very undesirable situation. One has to look at individual situations.

Years ago my office junior came in all-stary eyed; happily displaying a ring from a soft drink can, announced she was engaged. From that moment on, it was like helplessly watching a train crash in slow motion. Some month’s later she arrived at work looking desparately ill. She had spent a week-end with her “fiancee” - “the love of her life” - camping - trekking through rugged terrain and mountain climbing. In agonising pain, and at his insistance, she followed him.

Terrified, she confided to me that she had “passed part of her liver”; and thought she was dying. She had obviously miscarried. The story: She found herself pregnant and wanted to keep the baby. He didn’t want her to, also countering with: “how can I be sure it’s mine?”. At a time when abortions were illegal and with no science to establish paternity, I’m sure that this was a frequent response ... Doubtless, the “camping trip” was a hoped-for “solution” on his part.

Girls are notoriously romantic and giving, responding to “if you loved me...” - often impetuously.

Also, there is the consideration of closed, ethnic groups, where girls would be terrified to tell their parents they were pregnant; and these same girls would be the last to consider the need for contraception.

So many factors ...

As to divorce, much blame can be laid at the feet of fairy-tales in which frogs turn into princes. Perhaps stories should also warn that princes often turn into cane toads with unspeakable addictions, or are violent, or with police records.

Romantic feelings in females seem to be instinctive. My 4 year old grand-daughter thrillingingly announced her engagement to a little boy at kindy. Later I found her in tears. He had become engaged to “another”, albeit with a bigger box of coloured pencils.

Oh Aqvarivs, I hope that last bit was just to stir the pot. It’s rather ugly.

Otherwise, your previous comments about pre-marital counseling. You’re right. It would be an excellent thing to promote or even make compulsory before a marriage can take place. Considering the financial cost of divorce it probably should be mandatory.

Celivia, the likes of PeterD will never answer you questions. I’ve read and reread his comments to my post and am still trying to work out what it is he is saying. The rape analogy is too subtle for me. A better one would be: the world is full of men, all men can rape, though it is a choice for a man to rape (did you not know that?), to prevent unwanted trauma from rape let’s abort all men, ergo: no woman will ever be raped (or have an unwanted pregnancy!).

Is he saying: too bad that there are neglected, abused and abandoned children? Not his problem? He didn’t make the choice to abuse them? If so, great, then it isn’t his problem if a woman has an abortion. Such a shame he cannot comment on preventing abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies.

Goodthief, preventing or deciding on a pregnancy should ALWAYS be a joint thing. With that would also, hopefully, come a decision by BOTH as to what will be the decision in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. If you do not agree with the other, then this is not a sexual relationship you should embark on with this person. It is before you fall into bed with this person.

In the absence of prior agreement, it becomes tricky when a pregnancy occurs. If a man leaves the decisions/responsibility of contraception to the woman when a roll in the hay, on the spur of the moment, seems like a good idea, is it then reasonable he could force a woman into continuing with a pregnancy if this is not what she feels she can do?

Fester, those who call themselves ‘pro-life’ are specieists

Aqvarivs “The Anti-Catholic dis means nothing to me. Your wasting words.”

Learn to read, I was not directing the “dis” to you and my words are mine to waste (its called “choice”).

I am not a liar and your need to use of such inflammatory terms shows a both a lack of judgement and a lack of substance in your assertion.

What private individuals decide for themselves in their choice to sustain pregnancy or abort is up to them and nothing to do with you, regardless of the numbers of abortions involved or your personal take on the validity of reasons they may have to decide on such a course.

Let us put it this way

When you are completely prepared to accept the subjective moral values of strangers as the basis of determining your personal actions, then and only then, should you expect your subjective moral values be used by strangers as the basis for determining their actions.

In case anyone should think I am anti-male by my previous comment. I am not. Young males are also very vulnerable at a certain age. They feel the need to "prove themselves" - by sex and risk taking. A male mortality peak is found between the mid-teens and twenty-four.

The common method of risk-taking primarily involves the use of alcohol and cars, or challenging other males. The former combination frequently ends in death or being damaged for life; the latter can end with a police record (or death). Risk taking is generally impetuous and often to impress females, and seems to have been a factor throughout history. In 17th century England, a law was passed banning duelling as the young of the nobility were wiping themselves out. To circumvent this law, these young men crossed to channel.

Thus, we see high rates of pregnancy at the same age young males need to prove themselves; Young women get pregnant, not due to a maternal desire for children, but overwhelming romantic feelings; young men seek sexual conquests and often die proving themselves.
- a malthusian principle, and seen throughout nature?