Seems perfectly logical to me. The Queensland Institute - oops, sorry - University of Technology should teach Technology!

This raises in my mind a much larger issue. Too many students “brave the long trek” to study courses which could be more conveniently and far less expensively conducted online. All students who are after a BSc or BA because they need the piece of paper should not be sitting in lecture theatres with 400 other students furiously writing down as much of what the lecturer is saying as possible. The university campus should only be for those capable of doing research. The rest chasing the piece of could be enrolled in courses conducted on the Internet. I came to this conclusion after over a decade of hiring science graduates [who had been full-time university students] for routine laboratory work and discovering that not one of them knew how to think.

I would expect the average BA student to be a better thinker than the average BSc student, but science now knows so much about the foundations of life that no humanities person can legitimately discuss anything without having a good understanding of scientific concepts.

I completed a Bachelor of Laws/ Bachelor of Arts (Hons) at a QLD University 4-5 years ago.
About two years into the degrees it became apparent to me, as well as to the vast majority of my peers, that the course we were studying was highly repetitive and lengthened considerably by subjects that gave us absolutely no practical skills. For example, we were forced to complete subjects such as ‘Law & Culture’, and ‘Indigenous Law’ which were more opportunities for lecturers to push the ideological envelope than prepare students for actual practice. It appeared to me that academics, who by and large had only ever been academics, had lost sight of the fact that most students attend university to obtain employment and not become political activists.

Compacting everyone’s frustration was the fact that once we finished our $30k law degrees, we actually had to attend a Legal Practice Course in order to get a basic practical grounding before becoming solicitors! Meanwhile, at Bond university, law students were completing degrees in half the time (sure it was more intensive but the learnt on a need to know basis).

Since entering the workforce, I have become more and more convinced that my experiences at university weren’t isolated nor specific to me. The Howard government was absolutely correct in trying to force through voluntary student unionism and is absolutely correct in trying to make universities focus on teaching practical skills and implementing technically based courses.

A very sensible move, saving money and time spent on dills who did/do BA’s because they are not bright enough to do a useful degree, or whom mumsy and daddy insisted should go to ‘uni’ because it’s the in thing.

At the very least, the exclusion of BA’s would see a drop in production of left-wing nutters – a highly desirable end in itself

My the barbarians are out in force today.

Thanks HoHum

I knew I could rely on a lefty, pseudo intellectual to patronise us ‘barbarians’, and admonish us all for our lack of culture. After all, who needs an education regime with any real practical application?!

Leigh

You’re, as usual, of the mark with your unqualified rant about Arts degrees. There is no doubt that many BA’s are useless and filled with material of no real use. Having said that, some arts degrees incorporate languages and history subjects that compliment other practical degrees very well

Not only the BAs but also, I suspect, the BFAs (Bachelor of Fine Arts) are on their way out. For some years QUT has been running Bachelor of Creative Industries and Bachelor of Fine Arts degree courses. The former being the more vocationally oriented and probably easier to pitch to industry and government for funding.

I recently completed a BFA in Visual Arts and it was clear to my cohort that, towards the end of the course, the university had completely lost interest in this group. Resources were stripped to the absolute minimum, lecturers and tutors disappeared and the few that were left were overworked and probably feared for their jobs. No effort was made to get us to continue our studies into an honours year or anything beyond. There was a feeling of total abandonment and I felt like I had “done my dough” on this course.

One of the distinguishing features of the visual arts course is the studio practice element. This forms about 50% of the BFA and was a major part of the first three semesters of the BCI in visual arts until about two years ago when it was dropped from that course. The visual arts block, where the studio practice is concentrated, was poorly maintained and equipped and missed out on all the largesse lavished on the “cultural precinct” at Kelvin Grove. I recently heard that QUT is selling or giving away most, if not all, of its printmaking equipment and closing its printmaking facility.

Visual arts is now part of a school/department known as Communication Design and Visual Arts, Dance, Music & Sound. At best a clumsy title, but one that demonstrates the important position held by Communication Design, a shining star in the Creative Industries firmament.

To me it seems that the evidence points to a winding down of, at least, the BFA(Vis. Arts). If this is the case then QUT should be brave enough to kill it off rather than let it fade away and expose another group of trusting students to the same slow realisation and disappointment that I encountered.

"To allow the market mechanism to be the sole director of the fate of human beings and their natural environment...would result in the demolition of society". Karl Polanyi:The Great Transformation

"The most important consequence of the rule of technology is that, in a fundamental way, the whole society runs off track". Langdon Winner: Autonomous Technology

"There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory---when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption,---barbarism at last".

Lord Byron: Childe Harold's Pilgrimage.

"This time...the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing for quite some time".
Alasdair MacIntyre: After Virtue

These four quotes head two chapters in a book titled: Dark Ages America: The Final Phase of Empire.
1. http://www.morrisberman.com

People on the "right" will loathe this book. Every one else will find it profoundly disturbing. Australia is not yet as far gone as America but it is going in the same direction courtesy of our lap dog Prime Minister and his bunch of smiling bovver boy hooligans.

We already have to many economist who fail consistently with predicting interest rates and mineral booms and busts. We have to many 'scientist' trying to make a quid out of fabrication (climate change) and to many counsellors whose lives are a total mess. I'm with Leigh on this one.

Q: What did the Arts graduate say to the Science graduate?

A: "Do you want fries with that?"

Ho Hum,

They've been predicting the decline and fall of the US for decades. Quoting lines from a book won't make it happen. In short, it's not going to happen.

We already have to many economist who fail consistently with predicting interest rates and mineral booms and busts. We have to many 'scientist' trying to make a quid out of fabrication (climate change) and to many counsellors whose lives are a total mess. I'm with Leigh on this one

We already have TOO many EconomistS who fail consistently IN predicting interest rates *and mineral booms and busts* (I ASSUME YOU ARE REFERRING TO SUPPLY AND DEMAND FACTORS WHICH DETERMINE THE PRICE OF THESE NATURALLY OCCURRING COMPOUNDS?). We have TOO many 'ScientistS' trying to make a quid out of *fabrication (climate change)*(these three words are not linked by any connecting words and therefore have no meaning!!) and TOO many CounseLors whose lives are a total mess??(THEY DON'T TAKE OUT THEIR GARBAGE, PERHAPS?). I'm with Leigh on this one (THIS SENTENCE HAS NO SUBJECT~WE ARE LEFT TO ASSUME WHAT YOU ARE "with" LEIGH ON.)

The distinction between 'to, two and too' is currently taught as part of the Queensland English Syllabus for Year Two students.

The point of the original article was/IS to discuss a given topic, as indicated by the discussion question. Please address the issue, or refrain from responding.

In response to the posted question, Reynard actually provided an excellent basis for my argument, unfortunately he is both too stupid and too ignorant of the issues to realise that he actually has. I promise the above comments will be the last in which I resort to name calling

"Seems perfectly logical to me. The Queensland Institute - oops, sorry - University of Technology should teach Technology!"

The direction QUT has taken suggests that Peter Coaldrake does not want to see QUT in operation as a university of technology, but in fact wants a Queensland based vocational institution. Sadly, this Institute is already in existence, and is known as TAFE Queensland. I know my argument isn't a new one, but I feel it is an important one to add.

In addition to reiterating an old argument, I'd like to add to it by reflecting on the effect the removal of 'traditional' humanities will have on the "Smart State". Queensland is already viewed as an undesirable location for individuals interested in a culturally and intellectually stimulating place to settle. Add to this lack of desirability the reluctance of educated people to remain in Queensland. It may appear that I am jumping to conclusions, without considering how this process would unfold; in reality. However, if you consider that the end result of the current proposed reforms is to destroy the independent research capabilities of Queensland tertiary institutions altogether, then my conclusion becomes probable, and not the slightest bit overblown.

As a good mate recently wrote about this development:

Students will now be "Getting a sociological understanding of Poverty by studying nude photography, and Tap dance your way to an understanding of Social History."

So much for developing and nurturing intellectual rigor!

CLEARLY most of the posts so far are from Queenslanders who are unaware of the VERY current debate about making Arts/Sciene subjects compulsory for most university students in the southern States, regardless of whether they are studying medicine, business or engineering. The breadth of knowledge derived from such studies has an enormous impact on the overall intellect of the human being. I, for one, can instantly tell the difference between a young person that questions, and one that doesn’t, and I will always pick the one that DOES every time. Questions are only derived from knowledge of a subject, any subject, but carry across an enormous range of issues. QUT is making the most ENORMOUS mistake for its future, and the decision is EXTREMELY short sighted and completely lacking in ANY intellectual thought, what-so-ever. The three things that money should NEVER be about is health, housing and education, and in this debate QUT has made a most ludicrous decision, encouraging the ‘Stupid State’ and not the ‘Smart State’ that Mr Beattie intended. These Liberal policies are not conducive to education or learning, or the betterment of young Queenslanders. This decision is merely going to breed even MORE ignorance into an already VERY ignorant parochial little society. Call me crazy! Call me stupid! But when I’m 80 and a Gen-Y’er is in charge of the ‘red button’, are they going to say, “So yeah, dude! So, what’s with the red button, dude? Hey, ho, you got it on the red button… like I can’t find anything about red buttons on my iPod, and the dude, yeah, like my mate from the skate park, is like, yeah, stylin’ with his PS5, and like, dude, yeah, there’s no-one to ask ‘cause like we fired them old coots last year. Old grey nomads on their cruisin’ on their pension. Like, far out, dudes!”

Welcome to the new Arts-less new millennium people!

What wre expressed was the fact that many students who go to university do not go there to be educated, but to learn a trade to gain employment. Anything over and above learning required skills are superfluous. They go to 'Uni' because that is the only way now they can get a job in a chosen industry.

It was not so long ago that many jobs, even in law, were learnt on the job as an apprentice.

The silliest thing that was done was to make a university out of every college.

QUT is reverting back to being a college that teaches specific skills. Maybe it would be more helpful to differentiate again between universities and trade colleges. Should mean a reduction in HECS fees too.

The mindset of this discussion is similar to that of the wheatbelt countryside when I was a lad, when scholarships were regarded as not important, and the inspector asked a teacher why a boy, myself, with all near 90 percent passes was not sitting for a scholarship?

The inspector was informed by the teacher that tne boy's father was not interested in scholarships, and as it was the lad's last year in primary school, it was planned he leave school early in September to drive a wagon team carting harvest grain.

The talk thus got around the farm table about an older boy from a next door family who was classed as a bit funny because he had left the farm after a scholarship to study in Perth Modern School.

Is this the sort of future we are facing with youngsters only taught about making money, and nothing much to do with what should be life's chief desires, how to use our thought processes properly, not just using them for learning trades or how to calculate and make money.

Often in wheatbelt districts it happened to be the mothers who encouraged reading good books for the children, as it was with our part German mother who was so much held under the thumb of a bossy cockie old man, as he was called.

So it looks like with the new educational planning,
because politics happens to be an important subject in the humanities, we are going to finish with mostly dunderhead politicians.

Now I know why Mr Howard doesn't seem to care a hoot about history, because he believes in only looking to the future, and not even using life's rear vision mirror, where
one learns to not make the same old historical mistakes, as he and George Dubya have made in Iraq.



was told by of a student with a year full of 90 percent passes, except when it came time for harvest, and the boy, myself was thrilled to give away school in September to help with the harvest

Yvonne, I think you, and a couple of other posters (possibly Bushbred) have missed the point I was trying to make.

If I hadn’t had the opportunity to do my LLB in conjunction with an arts degree I probably wouldn’t have done it. The BA was in Asian Studies majoring in History and Politics. It gave me a great understanding of both the Indonesian language and allowed me to indulge my passion for culture, travel and history. It complimented the LLB very well, and I find it very useful working between Jakarta and Beijing. Unfortunately though, the system allows lecturers to push the ideological envelope over and over again- this is to no benefit of the students. It doesn’t encourage open debate and independent thinking at all (it encourages the opposite).

Law is a traditionally theoretical based subject. I don’t dispute that. However, how can it be that 1 week of a semester is devoted to John Stuart Mill, 3 weeks of a semester is devoted to corporate governance, and 9 weeks is devoted to subjects such “gay and lesbian reaction to Roe v Wade during the Vietnam War” (that is pulled straight from an old university text I had)! Then after 6 years at university, I’m forced to spend another $7k to attend a practical course IN ADDITION TO the equivalent of my articled clerkship today. It doesn’t make sense and for too long students and parents have been made to feel like ‘barbarians’ every time they criticize the curriculum (from primary to tertiary level).

Finally to bushbred’s point- I’ve never advocated anything less than a Year 12 education for every Australian child. However, it is just as stifling on the individual to make them feel worthless for not wanting to attend university. At my school for instance, very good friends of mine who went on to become builders, panel beaters etc (because they wanted to), were ostracized by the staff presumably because they are ‘barbarians’.

What sort of university will QUT be without a Bachelor of Arts degree?

Without Humanities, QUT will be closer to revealing itself as it truly is: a technical college with delusions of grandeur. Clearly, QUT believes that these courses are of no value as they no longer fit their “image” and besides, nobody seems to make much money out of it. How sad. Seriously, this leads to two debates this country needs to have….

Firstly, what is the place of universities in the higher education mix? Should they only provide tuition that leads to the acquisition of skills for a specific job, like a TAFE college but with a fancier and better paid kind of job at the end? Or is their greater strength in research and furthering human knowledge. As institutions, it seems universities are trying to be too many things to too many people.

Secondly, what value do we, as a society, place upon Humanities? Given the renewed interest in history and geography, in particular, during recent debate concerning primary and secondary schooling, QUT seems a little out of step. Anzac Day was just a few weeks ago and Australians show no signs of dwindling interest either in their nation’s history or taking part in the rituals and remembrances that keep this sense of history alive. Maybe QUT is right, we should cancel Anzac Day; we cannot possibly justify having a Public Holiday for the sake of historical observance when there is more money to be made.

Gary,
Very vailid and concerning points you have brought up. I am currently studing B Arts (Society and Change)/B Business (Advertising and PR), a dual degree I enjoy more every year. What a shame that next year's university students will no longer have the choices that I have had avaliable to me. QUT is too concerned with political and economic agendas and has lost site of the things that make a great university, it's teachers and students. Anyway, I must get to your HHB121 lecture now!

The issue is being clouded. Nobody should be (or is) suggesting that humanities be dispensed with completely. In fact quite the opposite. There has long been a push for more geography, history etc. The issue isn’t that humanities should not be taught, but rather what is taught (and therefore considered for the application of public money ie HECS).

The elitist academia in this country has dudded us all though, and can only blame itself for the rationing of subjects. Legitimate subjects such as history and geography have had their syllabus’ completely hijacked by an ideological agenda. The examples of this are endless. Instead of learning the fundamentals of a major event like WWII, students are asked ‘What is the feminist, marxist view point of WWII’. Australia Day is referred to as ‘Invasion Day’. Anzac Day and whether it is ‘exaggerated’ or not is constantly challenged. Kids know that all the problems of Africa were caused by colonialism but don’t comprehend the difference between ‘Africa’ THE CONTINENT and ‘South Africa’THE COUNTRY! What hope?

Bit slow getting on to this - only heard about it - thought for a while it was only just a rumour.

Anyhow, as one who in his long retirement gained Honours in the Social Sciences, majoring in Third World Problems, and now getting too bloody old, still became very perturbed when I found out.

Can't understand what Howard is up to. From my experience most universities have an unwritten law to be ethical, as well as both cosmopolitan and ecumenical because of the hundreds of mixed overseas nationalities now attending our universities.

Indeed, the deliberate weakening of the Schools of Humanities by an elected government, especially if other Western governments follow, and the very fact that it could be breaking democratic rules, could have Australia facing a World Court.

Howard must be losing his mind. What's going to happen if Kevin Rudd gets wind of this?

wre, the approach to history you were exposed to sounds very frustrating. The issue with history, I suppose, is that historical events are viewed through different prisms. Historical dates are easy, but what it was that led to that date, what the consequences were and how it was resolved depends on who tells the story.

Looking at events from another's perspective should expand your universe. The problem comes when it is suggested that one perspective is better than the other without a rational argument.

I was not educated in English, my history, fundamentals and description of events, were not from a British viewpoint, but from another European nation. Years ago, because I love history, when I read about historical events in English I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I was about the 'lies' and 'twisting' of 'facts'. Now of course I realize that the 'truth' probably lies somewhere in between. This is not only in cases of Victors vs Vanquished, but all sorts of events.

Re training and education. There is absolutely nothing wrong in either. I agree with you that 'uni' is seen as 'better', trades as 'lower', which is absolutely ridiculous. It is a perverse kind of snobbism.

I have one son who is doing Economics and Science, no issues at school, lots of encouragement. I have one son who is now in a full-time apprenticeship. Plenty of issues. Not behavioural, but insinuations and pressures. His confidence in what he wanted to do took quite a beating! Both are doing very well in their chosen pathways.

There is a natural rule about even running a modern farm, to look back over the years and learn from the mistakes.

As an old cockie with low early schooling and who found himself as a lad in the military beating college boys and as a top specialist mixing with officers rather than down in the ranks - yet at the same time sad to be unable to make use of the acquired Marksman certificate one had in his paybook, reckon there must be something we learn in the bush that others miss out on.

Yet it really is all about looking back as well as forward, as Churchill gave the quote that he preferred his top generals to have a good knowledge of historical battle tactics, which go right back to the days of the Greeks.

Yet even with the media these days, there is never mention much about past mistakes. Are even our journalists now showing the pressures of men like Murdoch whose skill has nothing to do with historical knowledge as is learnt in the Humanities, but more the acute sense of the skilled gambler or racketeer.

As an original bush larrikan lad, one has learnt to worry about what is happening with us right now...

If it is philosophy that is about to be chucked out please remember that the men who made the most critical changes for the former barbarian West, were both philosophers.

Firstly, Saint Thomas Aquinas, who is regarded as the greatest philosophical thinker because he stooped to balance Christian faith with Golden Greek philosophy largely enabling us former barbarians to be where we are today.

Secondly, John Locke, 17th century English philosopher who through his organising of the English 1866 Glorious Revolution, not only gave Royalty only second place in British national governance, but whose doctrine was also used to trigger the American War of Independence.

I find it rather amusing to hear uneducated people slagging off BA's.

I completed a Humanities Degree at QUT Carseldine, which was the most enriching, mind expanding, skill developing undertaking and achievement of my life.

I subsequently traveled the world for over 5 years with the luxury of a broad education and appreciation for the world I was visiting. Very much un-like the one-dimensional morons who stayed back here to persue pathetic 'jobs' which they now hate.

Now at 28 years of age run my own finance firm and earn substantially more than anyone I know (by a very long way) and I put it all squarely down to my supposedly impractical, un-usable BA...

I say with great pleasure a massive 'sucked in' to all you one-dimensional slaves who take vocational degrees and waste 3-5 years of your life just so that you can be an (arguably) fractionally better qualified slave for a merge few years after you have finished.

I can't think of anything worse than taking a boring as bat sh!te commerce degree - or worse some computer based total waste of time degree which will be out of date in 6 months anyway. The Humanities will stand you in fantastic stead for life!

My only worry is being surrounded by a bunch of computer geeks and engineers who have no f'ing idea about anything in life.

The Humanities are the pinnacle of true intellectual study.

Saying that university study should only be for the acquisition of a 'job' is as pathetic as saying that sex is just for making babies - get a life people!

Good on you, Daniel, You came into my computer like a ray of light. Can’t understand what is happening to most of the others? Howard and Costello must have most of ‘em conned?

We could start up with the old tune, what the world needs now – especially when one of our group goes on about how at last we’ve found the answer, with the right wing doctrines showing the way, the left ones back to where we had the right.

Sounds like in beer putsch days before the Nazi Revolution, when Germany’s left and right were both out for revenge and pretty well with the same feelings, all angry over the outcome of the Treaty of Versailles. All they needed was a secular saint or priest like Hitler, most eventually following Hitler, even the Bishops, the Americans as well showing interest.

But we are not really being harmed like the Germans thought they were, Daniel. It is just that we have been caught up in an admittedly ultra-right wing mentality possibly caused by the global situation, but it seems that the political mentality is being used to throw out parts of the Humanities, so important to our peace-time culture. Not meaning sport, of course, as John Howard seems to prattle so much about, as well as the conservative front-yard picket fence, but something precious and special that the more practical aspects of education can't give.

More to Come - BB

Congratulations Daniel on your stroke of good luck most probably combined with a good work ethic and plenty of nouse...
To the other BA graduates (and there are alot) who can't find work and entered university intellectually unequipped by the school system, Daniel is currently working on your retirement plan.
The figures speak for themselves- the vast majority of BA graduates remain unemployed after graduation.

A bit about my life, Daniel, which probably changed me from a bush b-rstard.

Brought up in the Great Depression, not much schooling but taught to like books by a part German mum, carrying pencils extracts from an Arthur Mee’s encyclopedia in my pocket as a I drove a wagon team. Was good enough to beat college boys later in military schools, also natural to a country lad, proudly on his arm and in his paybook, the insignia of a marksman or sharpshooter.

Trouble was that rather than a sniper, I became a specialist
showing officers the rudiments of heavy artillery range-finding, including radar.

Married a trainee girl teacher who had also joined the army, and stayed married to her for over sixty years, her having only passed away a year ago last week.

After retirement, my wife in order to keep me away from the golf club bar, kidded me to battle through a Leaving and a course in Humanities, finally gaining a social science degree, majoring in Third World Problems in Sri-Lanka.

Tried to get back to the golf course, but Dr John McGuire told me that right now I was an Honours student, and could later play golf in heaven.

After finishing up with Post-grad elective's in macro-economics and penning a historical series called A Land in Need based on WA since the First Landing, and just before my wife's death - finished 13 years taking groups in the Mandurah U3A, discussing mostly philosophical topics and history back from the Greek Golden Age to our worrisome present times.

Never ever believed I could ever be so lucky to spend the last years of my life engaged in such learning, Daniel, and reckon from only your one commentary, you and I could well feel disgusted at the lack of interest by most of our commentators, not only in philosophic and the associated scientific reasoning , but also in the knowledge and appreciation of the fine arts that the Schools of Humanities can give.

WRE - thanks for your worthless opinion. Do you have any evidence for the ridiculous statement that the vast majority of BA graduates are unemployed? Of course not - you are happy to recycle lazy stereotypes.

Let's assume the 'vast majority' of unemployed BA grads you refer to is 51% of all BA grads (I'm being kind). How does this square with QUT graduate outcomes for 'society and culture', as reported to DEST, being 85%? The reason it's not higher than 85%, by the way, is because not everyone wants to go into the workforce (for example, because they are raising a family) after uni.

Do you know what the national unemployment rate is? Do you assert, perhaps, that the entire national unemployment rate is comprised of BA grads (that would seem to be a consequence of your wild claims)? The School of Humanities has an excellent team of social scientists - currently facing redundancy - who could help you with your total inability to manage even simple descriptive statistics.

Daniel06 - a brilliant post! How true, that the idea of tertiary education as merely job training cheapens us all. I feel sorry for young people, so fearful of the spectre of not getting a job, who condemn themselves to 3 years of total boredom.

QUT’s own ‘Academic Programme Report 2000’ has figures in it reflecting that a graduate with a BA has 5 times less success in finding a job than a graduate in Commerce, Engineering, Business or Law. Interestingly, a job seeker was likely to be more successful with a double degree (perhaps incorporating Arts?).
In any case, academics have shot themselves in the foot- most are completely disconnected with the requirements of industry and business. Furthermore, most academics are in denial about the requirements of students- most students do attend university to become better qualified and NOT to become political activists and philosophers. This fact has been reflected in almost every graduate survey ever undertaken (look some up).

wre - you're a bit of a slow learner, aren't you?

The 2000 QUT data you refer to (and let's charitably forget the fact it's 2007 now), then, would suggest that even if 100% of law etc grads found work, only 20% of BA grads did so. Is that a plausible statistic? The last statistic I saw QUT management generate on this suggested that the difference in employment was a factor of 2. Even their stats - deliberately weighted to make an argument to eliminate the BA and deeply questionable - are not as extreme as yours. And you keep missing the larger point: not everyone takes a job or wants a job (maybe read Daniel06's post); not everyone treats university instrumentally in this way. You might be interested to know that the School of Humanities has topped (or been right near the top) of all recent teaching satisfaction surveys for QUT of the last few years. They seem to be giving the students what they want, and student protests about the closure of the BA back this up. Fortunately, not everyone wants to be brain dead.

"most academics are in denial about the requirements of students" - I see: you claim 51% of academics have some sort of (psychological?) problem of this sort? I'm sure we don't need any more evidence for this; all of us are happy to take your uninfomed ramblings as fact.

"most [sc. academics - or maybe humanities academics?] are completely disconnected with the requirements of industry and business" - again, your detailed survey demonstrating that at least 51% of academics would struggle to recognise a factory would make interesting and vital reading.

Or perhaps you just like spreading your ignorance and don't want to let any facts get in the way.

By the way, on your earlier post, it's 'nous', not 'nouse'; it's originally a Greek word (sorry, unable to render it here without the Greek alphabet). 'Alot' should, in fact, be 'a lot'.

Look it up (oh, sorry, I forgot, you have no need of any fact-checking). Carry on as you were.

I completed (part-time whilst raising a family) a Humanities Degree (double major) which was one (just one) of the most enriching, mind expanding, skill developing undertaking and achievement of my life. My GPA was over 6 (7 HD's in a row helped bring it up). I decided not to do honours.

All my immediate family are university educated in more rigorous areas of study. My eldest has tenure and is on the way to being Associate Professor. The most important thing my degree did for me was to confirm what my "uneducated" parents always said which was to not let society or anyone tell you what to do or think. "Work it out for yourself."


Now my life's experience have educated me more than any degree will ever do. I have as much respect for say the learned experiences and consequent wisdom of a working-class battlers, indigenous folk, the mentally ill, the misfits, the Maureens of this world, and so on and on and on that the likes of Daniel06 takes delight in belittling (because Daniel06 has a degree). Big faacking whoopee you’ve got a degree.

Daneil06 you've shown through your contempt for the ordinary person, people different to you and who make different choices what an ignorant fool you are elsewhere on OLO. Your degree is nothing Daniel06 if your only benchmark is how much better you think your education makes you. You've referred to me as uneducated and therefore stupid, idiot, moron, and just about every derogatory name associated with intelligence that you can think of - you are the antithesis of what a humanities student should be thinking. I can understand why you use a non-de-plume I’d be ashamed to put my name to such intellectually dishonest and anti-humanities rubbish you have posited. You need some understanding of real ethical behaviour to back your BA up and make you a well- rounded individual.

People with a humanities education who slag off the "uneducated" have missed the point and are essentially as uneducated as the day that they received their acceptance to uni.

Ah Ronnie Boy,

If only you could see how ironically your own posts prove your total lack of intellect quite resoundingly on their own - you don't need any supposed claims by me to do that Ronald.

What a suprise to know that even a Humanities Degree had no effect on you, and that unsubstantiated, uneducated urban myths are what you live your life by. You are so boring and predictable.

PS It is hillarious that your opening paragraph is verbatum copied from mine. Did you learn that at Uni?

WRE,

I am guessing you are a real hit at parties?

By your logic we should all:-

1. Go to uni exclusivlely for a specific job relevent to that particular 3-5 year period. (don't worry that most jobs that people will do in their lives have not even been invented yet and that most people have around 3-5 careers in their lives)

2. Only read to obtain facts - I suggest the phone book or a dictionary. Why would anyone read for fun or to expand their minds?

3. Only have sex to procreate the human race. No fun here please.

4. Travel only for the purposes of getting somewhere. Never take in the view, smell the fresh air or have any fun. Transport is for getting from a to b only.

5. All be slaves to whatever industry is in fashion that decade. I here dot-com start ups are the thing to invest in WRE.

6. Pick a career at 17 and stick with it! Don't worry how soul destroyingly boring, low-paid and or wrong you may realise it is 2 years later.

7. Eat only protein shakes - why enjoy eating meals?

8. Don't invest in a house, you could spend the money on a holiday or blow it all at the casino for a few days of fun.

WRE studying at University simply for a job is just so short-sighted and puritanical. If thousands of people didn't share your puritanical view I would honestly think it was a joke.

I imagine that this is just the sort of thing Kevin Rudd will be happy with. He will see it as an economic rationalist's approach to education. From his view point we don't need people with degrees in humanities...just degrees in science, technology and Asian languages.

The problem is that cultural literacy is in serious decline. An educational institution does not become a university merely by labelling it "university". Much of what is now taught in universities does not need to be taught at all, especially not badly taught. What is lacking is the debate about the subject matter, the capacity to do creative research. It's publish (as much as possible) or perish. One research paper a year is not enough. It has to be ten or twenty - as long as they are in the "acceptable research" areas... no good asking for funding in a basic down to earth practical problem of some genuine social value in the humanities.
Without humanities we will lose our creative edge in the sciences...and that problem starts back in schools where the most intelligent students are expected to do maths and science instead of English and history.

Wow Dave.Hit a nerve have I?

‘And you keep missing the larger point: not everyone takes a job or wants a job (maybe read Daniel06's post); not everyone treats university instrumentally in this way.’

Firstly, as public money is involved, what is the public expectation of how funding is spent? While my lack of empirical data has obviously riled you, why don’t you wander through the Queen Street Mall at lunchtime, or better still a coal mine at smoko (it’s a word derived from Australian slang, now obviously meaning ‘Cup of Tea after working to pay the bad HECS debt of students who never wanted a job anyway), and see how well your proposition goes down?

The comment also illustrates that the academic ‘elite’ (I use that term loosely) isn’t in touch with general public sentiment in this country-that’s a personal opinion, but one that I think would be supported widely given how patronising your posts are. How can you seriously contend that the resources of universities can be legitimately utilised by people who do not intend on ever being capable of paying back HECS, AUS-STUDYetc? Does this mean their Centrelink forms were completed fraudulently or that any student is entitled to graduate and rely on social security ad infinitum (since you have a penchant for linguistics that’s Latin- to infinity; forever)? Why aren’t these ‘intellectual’ seekers of utopia paying their way at Cambridge, or dare I say it, Bond University?

You were right though in stating that I was being generous in referring to 2000 data regarding the unemployment of students who graduated solely with a BA. Even if you accept your contention that they are likely to find it ONLY twice as hard as other students to get a job, today, they’d be confined to Woolworths, backpacking in Spain or better, a mobile pie truck at Mt Isa. Let me know when any think tank has the social conscience and moral courage to comprehensively survey graduating arts students and map out their exact destinations of employment. The 1 in 2 that actually have a job will be thrilled

Daniel06 "The Humanities are the pinnacle of true intellectual study". That is: only if you agree with Daniel06 otherwise the Humanities pump out “idiots”. You've spent a great deal of time doing what you resent others for doing. You've been attacking the "uneducated" and now you join those that attack the educated because an educated one doesn’t agree with you. .

Re: your claim that I “verbatum copied from mine [Daniel06’s first line]. … “? Once again. You missed the point. (I thought we uni- educated had poetic licenses. And I thought you educated geniuses had the sense to see the take). My point - you're no better than others that you've obsessively disparaged as stupid. I also pointed out that my formal education was only one aspect of my education. Your attention to detail is very, very poor –it was not verbatim. You've also displayed a limited ability to reason abstractly. You’ve been doing drugs since you were thirteen? Hmmm. Limited ability to reason in the abstract is a sign of neuron damage.

You spend a lot of time clutching rather than dealing with the real issues I raise. People can read your lame and spiteful attempts to be clever and paint yourself out of the Catch22 pickle your arrogance and prejudice landed you in Daniel06. Yes I did learn in Uni that bluster like yours is no substitute for rigour and inquiry. I also know the odd angry meatworker who’d see by instinct/intuition alone that you’re all talk and a bona fide waanker. Cycling is as harmful as illicit drugs – and we’re all a joke to you?

You, and graduates like you, are a disgrace to academia and good reason why people lose trust in the more sensible, humble and selfless academic fraternity.

What kind of QUT without BA courses. An illicit drug-free one?

Daniel06 et al, I forgot to mention that in five people make up my immediate family. One a Doctor of Philosophy (Science), one doing Honours (Science), one graduate (Creative Arts), one graduate (Humanities -double major –took some at level 4 because level three too simple) one partly finished (Commerce)- my extended family also includes another Doctor of Philosophy (Science) and hence your claims that I don’t know how hard it is to get a degree are just another of the many myths you’ve tried to create about people because you disagree with them.

You've made a complete twat of yourself with your arrogance and prejudice.

Some of those “uneducated” people you loathe have more insight and sense than you’ll gather with your closed-minded attitude. . You slag these people as idiots, etc. ad nauseam because they’ve chosen to live by sensible rules with a time-proven and simple moral basis (in their estimate but which you regard as myth).

You’re a person whose talk indicates that you think yourself an intellectual giant who thinks he can bully others - but in the end Daniel06 you’re just a redneck bully. What a waste.

Daniel06 don’t bother reading the quote below from an African-American -it’d be stupid to you. Didn’t slave owners call men who they saw as beneath them “boy”? You consistently call others you believe you are superior to “boy”. That thinking is racist and racist thinkers are racists. Besides your head might explode if it had to absorb something outside your entrenched redneck schema. Drugs are fun, drug are fun, all who disagree are dumb, drugs are fun. Keep that there arrogant mythic chant going?

“Nettie I still don’t understand. I don’t neither. ....

I feel bad sometime Nettie done pass me in learnin. But look like nothing she say can git in my brain and stay. She try to tell me something bout the ground not being flat. I just say, Yeah, like I know it. I never tell her how flat it look to me.”

Ah Ronald,

You make it too easy for me. I almost feel sorry for you - but I am still going to point out a couple of your abject flaws anyway just for fun.

1. Calling me a waanker is like calling me a shaver, or a tooth brusher - we all do it. Perhaps you should try it. You might chill out a bit. Oh but knowing your blind faith in urban myths you probably think masterbation sends you blind.

2. If Humanities Degrees churn out "idiots" then by default you have just called yourself and another member of your family an idiot as you yourselves have a Humanities Degrees. Thats the only catch 22 I can see Rony ron ron boy.

3. I have seen crack-heads who are more articulate than you - read through your posts and see how bad the grammer and articulation really is.

It must annoy you so much to know that I run a successful business, have an absolute babe for a girlfriend, loads of mates a massive house (several of them actually) and my intelligent, articulately spoken opinions are shared by virtually everyone.

It pleases me to know that you are a krusty old fart who will move on well before me and that I will enjoy a world without you in it at some point. A luxury you don't have with me Ronny boy.

Have a great weekend - I'm going clubbing and enjoying the fruits (in all their chemical compositions) of my labor.

Well said Ronnie. Daniel06 obviously vastly over estimates his own intellect given all he had to say related to sex, protein shakes and personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with him. No doubt he is sitting in his chair giggling and congratulating himself on just how funny he thinks he is. Why don’t you take your ‘babe’ of a gf to your favourite ‘club’ and indulge your infantile preoccupation for material possessions- very cultured. The difference between you and I Daniel is that I have it all but I don’t compile lists to feed my ego by referring to my mortgage and lease agreements staring right at me. How many friends did you buy? Does your girl friend know your wealth is fake and you’re really a low breed who sits on OLO insulting well respected posters like Ronnie?

You’re a disgrace Daniel.

You are right WRE,

I am sitting here giggling and thinking about how great I am.

And funny.

I have an Arts degree, with an honours in politics. I have a Bachelor of Music too. Don't have a job, yet, but I am working toward becoming a full time musician.

Arts degrees are generally good for helping you to learn to think. However, the courses are extremely biased in favour of left wing ideology, and I have ultimately found I discovered the most when I went against what I had been taught.

I think a lot of good points have been made here by all- hard work should be highly valued, as well as learning for simply for the sake of learning. Both appear to have paid off for Daniel. I must admit I am a little envious of him, but I say it without the invective of some other posters.

Why am I even bothering to enter this forum when I don't feel particularly strongly one way or another? One reason:

Ronnie,

Before you post anything on the internet, you should first take a few deep breaths. Go for a walk. Have a cookie. Clearly you argue the same way here as you do anywhere else- you deal generally in personal attacks, and you consistently contradict yourself, from post to post and within posts. You are one of the most bitter people I have come across, and contribute nothing to any debate.

Could reckon from experience, that the Humanities, though tough
on the thought processes, is good for anyone in retirement who has had to depend on a practical vocation.

In fact the Murdoch School of Humanities does allow for correspondence, its courses or topics, mostly for retirees, most of them free or at low cost.

Certainly these days with thoughts of conflict right at our Aussie doorsteps, many working Australians could still find time to do correspondence courses, mainly to get a more balanced point of view, rather than they get through the media, especially in WA, were we only have one daily paper, the editor at present simply playing political potshots with whoever he doesn't like.

There is also the problem of retired students getting too smart and alluding to a dumb public, which might be a good idea to mix the social sciences with talking about sport, which so often proves a good social leveller.

Dozer says: "Clearly you argue the same way here as you do anywhere else- you deal generally in personal attacks..." And your fellow travellers Happy Bullet, JamesH, Daniel06, et al and all the other nasty OLO posters, particularly in the anti-feminist lobby don't? Go back and check out their (and your) vitriolic personal attacks and gross misrepresentations which outweigh and outnumber my little digs many fold; while you're there you might use your research skills to identify your own bias. Oh that's correct - that subjectivity has you locked in to believing your own, as a consequence, uneducated position. You lot get nasty but get sooky when others’ counter your spite.

Daniel06 says I'm predictable, so therefore, I must be consistent which negates your (Dozer) argument - given Daniel06 knows it all.

wre: I think that there is a place in uni for the Humanities. I think, the discipline should be, in part, integrated into some of the remaining more (supposedly) vocational courses.

USA’s degrees are over four years with the first year covering English, History and some arts-type areas. My son did film, English, American history along side physics and maths. The prerequisites give students a better grounding for further study and citizenship. I think this could also be helpful in Australia. I don’t think that it is the absolute end of Humanities at QUT – I think we’ll see a more effective use of the disciplines.

Feminists: I forgot to mention that an in-law of mine gained her BA later in life. When she was at high school she was the top of the class and has very high IQ; but they gave the one scholarship on offer to the next best because he was a he. Thank God (or goodness) for feminists who’ve helped to lessen such sexist discrimination.

Bushbred. Your posts are articulate and sensible and show a level of maturity that may have less to do with your education and more to do with your life experiences. Daniel06’s ageism is a fear reaction – nature’s law (or God’s decree) says there we all must go.

Daniel06 says: "If Humanities Degrees churn out "idiots" then by default you have just called yourself and another member of your family an idiot as you yourselves have a Humanities Degrees. Thats the only catch 22 I can see Rony ron ron boy."

Daniel06 I never said that the Humanities churn out "idiots" - you did. I was quoting you and referring to your opinion. You referred to me as an "idiot" many times when you thought I was uneducated and produced your qualifications as proof that you must be correct and I an idiot.. You seem to have a lot of trouble with thinking processes that require more than one uptake.

Waanker you are for sure. However, you know very well that it wasn’t about masturbation but your attitude. A waanker is a “contemptible and ineffectual” person according to the dictionary (the spelling error is because OLO regards the word as a profanity-interesting how the moderators don't feel that your misrepresentations and name-calling are profane).

In relation to your attitude to the uneducated (and the educated), women, people who disagree with you, older folk, etc. you fit the criteria. You have proven to be a very arrogant, deceptive and dishonest person Daniel06 and it will catch up with you.