Pericles,

<< This is not supported by logic >>

Perhaps only with your twisted sense of logic can anyone connects a comparison between two religions with two dishes. And then argue there is no such thing as a dish being "true" or "false".

You blankly assert Christianity and Islam are the same to begin with, then say that one cannot be "true" whilst the other "false".
What kind of circular logic is this?

Muhammad cleverly borrowed from Judaism and Christianity, to establish some CREDIBILITY, in order to LEGITIMIZE Islam.

Of course, Fellow_Human is more than happy to continue the legacy of his Muhammad, to jump in and support your view.

He is playing his part here, to give the impression Jesus is one of Islam's own. Does he care whether you have a warped sense of logic?

Part 1
“Life beyond the grave is real. The Bible proves it. Jesus proves it.”
Posted by coach, Friday, 27 April 2007 8:32:41 PM

OK some 30 odd years ago my father-in-law told me that he had seen many dead people during WWII and to him I was dead! (After an industrial accident)
Well, whatever happened I am still alive and I might have looked death but darn I could not resist to live real life a bit longer. More then the length I had lived then so far.

I didn’t see any pearly gates! I didn’t see any angles. So, while for others I appeared to be dead, to me I never saw anything.
To my father-in-law I had a resurrection but to me it was simply that I was kicking on and while the fat lady might have been singing it certainly was not my time, at least I held so.
If life beyond the grave is real, is that meaning that I was resurrected and have a life as such?
As to “The Bible proves it”, so far I known there were those people at the time, or some hundreds of years later who were basically playing bingo with scripts and decided what was in and what was out. Like anything that portrayed Judas to be les then the evil traitor seemed not suitable for inclusion. Now, that is like the unsworn affidavit of a witness that is withdrawn the moment any reliable evidence is presented that counteract what was alleged.
“Jesus proves it”, well I could not have been closer to death then I was, as otherwise it would have been a permanent departure, yet, I have neither seen Jesus in real life on earth or in the death I was about to face

A Malaysian Hindu, born of Muslim parents, was taken by force from her husband and her 15-month-old baby girl by the Islamic religious police. She has already been detained for 100 days after being charged with the apostasy of ‘deserting’ Islam. Recently, her detention has been extended by another 80 days.
http://forums.techarp.com/showthread.php?p=306333

The plight of the woman was highlighted by Al Jazeera, the Arabic News Satellite Channel. http://www.malaysiakini.tv/mkini/?vid=1058

It is unfortunate that there are many in OLO who think that Islam does not use force and violence to achieve its aims. Either they are Muslims or are totally ignorant of the havoc caused by Islam in the world.

ISLAM 101
The following website is a good place to learn about Islam from ex-Muslims who are very knowledgeable about the Koran and Islamic practices.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/

Philip Tang: If you're referring to Fellow Human, I don't think he believes Muslims don't [ever] use force etc. He's saying, I think, that the Qur'an doesn't require them to - or, at least, that the Qur'an also permits a more peaceful way of going about things. I am yet to read the Qur'an, so I don't know how much or how little of peace is to be found in it.

Fellow Human: You're not seriously trying to say that a belief in the divinity of Jesus is NOT at the core of Xianity, are you? This is a hopeless cause. The fact that the doctrine of the Trinity evolved or that unitarians have existed or exist now doesn't alter the fact that virtually all Xians alive today are full-blown Jesus enthusiasts and Trinitarians. We believe that Jesus claimed to be divine (I'll elaborate on the claims if you want me to) and demonstrated it at least to our satisfaction. I think belief in his resurrection was around at a very early stage: at the very least, Paul's letters are full of it, and it seems that he is reminding his readers of what they knew already.

Mind you, the belief in the Trinity would have been strange to people (the early Xians) who had been either monotheists or polytheists, so it's not surprising that it developed in a very untidy way that led to confusion, conflict and the need for doctrinal "settling".

My impression is that you're trying to remove obstacles that block Muslims and Xians from getting along better, is that right? (In that, we agree.) If so, then informing Xians about Xianity won't help any more than when we try to inform you about Islam. We'll need to get along better even though our concept of God is different. I think we have exchanged views already about reasons why Muslims might treat people of the Book well, and the love commandment at my end. This is enough, don't you think? And the modern wave of strident atheism gives us a common adversary.

Your opinion is well known, coach.

>>Comparing Christianity with Islam is not like comparing same with same. It is more like trying to compare apples with stones (not oranges)<<

Unfortunately the only justification you can dredge up to support this is your own faith. Believing in something only makes it "true" for you, not for the rest of mankind.

Your arguments are entirely circular.

>>Only a belief in (the real) Jesus (Christianity) is guarantee of “salvation”<<
>>The test of any religion is who they say Jesus is or is not<<
>>Life beyond the grave is real. The Bible proves it. Jesus proves it<<

These statements only make sense to someone who already believes in them, so have absolutely no value or meaning to one who doesn't.

>>When (not if) one thing is true, any contrary notion must be not true, simply false, a counterfeit<<

It is true that I enjoy Boeuf en Croute. It is also true that my wife doesn't, being a vegetarian.

It is also true that I enjoy Boeuf Bourguignon. Strangely my wife doesn't.

She sees my statement that I can enjoy both dishes as nonsensical, but it doesn't make them any less true.

It is true (I assume) that you are a Christian. That also means that you are religious, in the same way that my wife is vegetarian.

I am not a Christian, nor am I religious. In the same way that I am carnivorous.

None of my arguments (beef is a natural source of iron etc.) makes any sense to you, in the same way that none of yours (killing animals for food is barbaric etc.) can get through to me.

To me, you are all arguing about something you believe in (Christianity, vegetarianism) which is fine. But to draw a distinction between two recipes on the basis of "true" or "false" does not fall into any category of logical argument that I am aware of.

My wife and I get along fine, because she never nags me about eating meat and I never tease her about being preternaturally fussy in restaurants.

Mr Gerrit,

Resuscitation by medical interventions is not “resurrection” – a re-constitution of the dead with a new eternal physical body.

Fellow_Human,

"Sin and Paradise".

The doctrines of Islam are different “by necessity”. Paradise is conveniently accessible as a reward only to Muslims.

Hell in Islam is reserved for non-Muslims. A theme repeated ad nauseum in the Qur’an.

According to the Qur’an ALL go to hell FIRST. Some will remain there for ever, but Muslims* will have their sojourn reduced according to many factors:–

*Note: Future Islamic terrorist, the following doesn't concern you. Jihad is your one-way ticket to paradise, blow yourself straight to paradise do not pass hell, do not pay your parking fines.

Much like the “Purgatory” invented by the Catholic Church centuries ago, Islam has a second-chance entry pass:

Repeating the shahada (I believe in Allah and his prophet) i.e. a last-minute-under-duress conversion.

Some will have angels usher them in (intercession).

Some will walk on a sharp wire above the fires of hell. Those who succeed win immunity for the big weigh-in: Allah's scale for goodness against badness.

If you pass all these (and other) hurdles, Allah can still change his capricious mind and drop you in hell.

So tell me Saint FH, according to your religion, who can have a 100% guarantee? Do you fell lucky (I won’t say 'punk')?

Not even your prophet could be sure. How ridiculous is that!

Islam's understanding of Sin and Paradise makes a mockery of God and Jesus.

One Example: In Christianity (and all modern societies) Polygamy is a Sin, it is called Adultery and Fornication. Inadmissible in heaven or on earth.

Not so in Islam.

Allah allows fornication, drunkenness, paedophilia, incest, and all debaucheries in his paradise (for men only mind you – women will still be slaves to men).

Admit it FH we are all sinners unworthy to meet God’s standards. Only the blood of Jesus can make us acceptable to God. Not laws and rituals.

Paradise cannot be God's heaven. Islam is a dead-end religion.