Hi Yvonne and Logic,

Its actually words of encouragement from decent posters like yourselves that keep me going. People like Boaz have alienated a number of Australian Muslims who used to contribute to these forums. Then he wonders why Australian Muslims are not part of the forum?!. I believe if we provide an open and honest discussion forum we can make a great improvement in finding the common values that bind and unit all of us.

Yvonne,

Trying to keep Boaz (and the fellowship of the ring) honest over the last year was like trying to teach a fish how to bicycle but persitence is my middle name:).
He have a talent for ducking, weaving then appearing on a new article but all the good things come to those who wait :)

Peace my friends,

Fellow-Human,
I would not classify the dimmitri code as revolutionary .

What was REVOLUTIONARY was that some Moslem rulers – were/are big enough to step beyond these rules & allowed their non-Moslem subjects a much higher degree of latitude…

I take your point about – mosques not being permitted in Greece.
But one is not permitted to build churches or temples in Saudi Arabia either !
And, a Greek is not liable to face the death sentence if he/she chooses to renounce, or denounce, his/her religion of birth –. as would be the case in many North African societies.
[ but then –two wrongs don’t make a right! ] .

One of the big frustrations from a western perspective is that while we as a society are prepared to question, to criticize & even ridicule our core institutions & icons ( & many western intellectuals could be even seen as being hyper-critical of such things )
There seems little cognizance in Islamic societies that there is anything to criticize re their CORE initiations & history. –in most cases it seems to be off limits …

Though I will say this, there has been in recent years the beginning of this self-criticism.
There are some notable middle eastern thinkers who are beginning to speak -up ( some at great cost to themselves). And your own acknowledgement that no side is blameless is very refreshing …

I agree with you that we need to move-on from our mistakes.
And I look forward to the time when there are not separate rules & status’s for dhimmi & Non- dhimmi - but a single standard for all fellow humans …

Peace !

Hi Horus,

Apologies if you misread my quote; I said the dhimmi rights were revolutionary “at the time” in comparison to, say Muslims and Jews rights under Christian ruling. Can’t compare Greece to Saudi Arabia but happy for to compare the Vatican to Saudi Arabia. History have a reference where our prophet gave a room in his house to Christian monks to worship. So maybe one day they can exchange a mosque and a church.

You quote:
“One of the big frustrations from a western perspective is that while we as a society are prepared to question, to criticize & even ridicule our core institutions & icons”

Most Muslims question many things about their faith and if you got access to Islamic and / or Arabic websites you will see tens if not hundreds of thousands. What we do not do is to mock religious icons and or matters of divinity. Btw, in this matter we don’t differentiate between prophets and religions and here is an example:
Most muslim countries including Egypt banned the ‘Davinci Code’ because it was voted by Muslims as degrading Jesus to a mere reformer who was secretly married.

Let me share a frustration with you:

1. Egypt as a Muslim country started officially celebrating Christmas and Easter as public holidays to the minority Christians. Why didn’t the west recognise that as a good example? Can you refer me to a western country where the government or public congratulate Muslims on their religious festivals? (let alone have it a public holiday).

2. The Tunisian parliement have recognised women's right and now more than 11% of their members are females (which is much higher than average EU countries). Where is that recognised and applauded in western or Australian media?

Its good to criticise what's wrong but also important to recognise what is good. Integration is a 2 way street.

Peace and have a good weekend,

FH,

<< Most Muslims question many things about their faith... we do not... mock religious icons and or matters of divinity.... banned the 'Davinci Code'... >>

No, no credit to Muslim countries that ban the 'Da Vinci Code'. Such countries would also readily out-law any attempt to cast doubt on Islam.

Do Muslims question if Muhammad truly met with Angel Gabriel? I think to openly question this would tantamount to mocking Islam and its prophet also, and would be banned.

What you said is only sweet on the outside.

Any religion must be subjected to open challenges, no if or but.

As you must have picked up on other threads, I'm interested to read your proof if any, that Muhammad's alleged encounters with Angel Gabriel were no hoax.

It's off topic... so be it.

GZ Tan,

Hoax = to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous (preposterous “contrary to reason or common sense”).

Now, if the tenets of Islam are to believe in one God and all his prophets and messengers. That to be good means to pray, fast pay the alms follow the commandments (ie honour your parents, tell the truth, control your desires, master your ego and pride, etc..). That no one can save you but you are actions and intents. That to be good means acting good: pay the alms, help the needy and the poor. That all sin is forgiven (except for idolatry or worshipping other gods or object) provided that you genuinely repent and don’t commit it again.
That all people of all races, skin colours and gender are equal in front of God.
(You don’t need to study the whole Quran or Islam for that, just google prophet Mohammed last sermon).

What exactly is hoax “contrary to reason or common sense” in the above?
Especially in comparison to other religious convictions.

In my view religion has to make a simple sense to the average person. The question of hoax or real applies when you need to bend the average mind back and forward to understand the fundamentals of a faith.

PS: I am confused about you religious conviction.
Your comments appear to be bouncing between Christianity, wiji boards, scientology, atheism.

What do you believe in, if any?

Fellow-Human
I didn’t misread your comment - I just didn’t think it deserved the accolade
[ Neither Christian ,Jewish or Islamic models would make my Olympic team!]

If you compare the Islamic dimmitri system with the open tolerance practiced by the early Persian empire under Cyrus the great …
If you compare it with the tolerance & even-handedness of Ashoka the great Buddhist king of India
If you compare it with the early-mid Roman Empire (which despite pop history misrepresentations )- was non-intrusive in personal religious matters - unless the religion became involved in rebellion …
Then you would find the dimmitri code was a very big retrograde step…

Interesting point you make about Egypt allowing the Copts to celebrate Easter & Christmas.
There are actually very close parallels with Australia in this regard:
The Copts are the Aborigines of Egypt .
Australia also encourages its Aboriginals to take off time - to attend their festivals - and has been doing so for years.

Comparing Saudi Arabia to the Vatican is a stretch …
There probably wouldn’t be room to build a mosque in the Vatican unless you demolished some of the existing buildings .But more importantly - the Vatican does not have tens of thousands of resident guess workers -who follow other faiths but are not permitted to publicly practice them…

I do applaud the positive & liberal trends I see in many middle eastern countries But I think you’d have to acknowledge that Tunisian record is far from the norm …
I do access Arab websites -those not closed or blocked by the mutaween - The Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.
I do read Arab authors -but most of the ones I like have had a fatwa pronounced against them…

Taking a non-critical line on icons (of religious or secular nature) is a two edged sword.
While it may be admirable to protect peoples sensitivities
There seems to be a positive relationship between a societies willingness to challenge icons & the number of Nobel prize laureates it produces….