Boaz, I'm amazed you weren't able to track down this simple fact on your own.

>>What is your 'source' for 'Mohammed mortgaged his shield to a Jew' ? :)

(the jaws of the consistency trap are about to close on you matey :)<<

Perhaps it was because there's nothing on YouTube about it.

However, the Islamic University of Rotterdam has.

"Islam permits all manners of lawful dealings with non-Muslims, including commercial transactions, the development of friendship and social relations, visiting with each other, calling on the sick, and giving and receiving gifts. There are many instances that prove this. When the Holy Prophet passed away, his shield was found to be mortgaged with a Jewish lender. Some of the Companions of the Holy Prophet, if they were slaughtering a lamb, would instruct their servants to distribute the meat starting with their Jewish neighbors."

http://www.islamicuniversity.nl/en/showarticleinfo.asp?id=425

Sadly, I suspect that you didn't bother to follow it up yourself because it didn't fit into your "Whack-a-Mozzie" approach to life.

Look around you. Think before you speak. Check before you write.

Have a great day.

Pericles,

I am impressed!

Boaz,

I am now questionning your expertise on Islam.
All muslims know that the modest prophet of Islam at his death left a shield and a mule (the 'greedy power hungry' man you are talking about) so the story of the shield is public knowledge.

Early muslims honoured people of the book, they maintaned their churches and treated them well. the prophet married a Christian woman (mother of his only son) and a Jewish woman. He honoured his peace treties with people of the book and ordered their protection. The only thing that happened to a non muslim was the Gizyah (ie 5% tax rate) for being exempted from the army/ military service.

Here is a challenge:

Please compare the same period up to the spanish inquisition what happened to Muslims and Jews when their brotherly 'tolerant christians' took control of their cities?
Torched alive? forced conversion? mosques and temples looted and turned into churches? What happened to jews during the inquisition and in Christian Europe up to (and included the holocaust)?
Please check the history of the word 'live ammunition' (crusaders used to put muslim prisoners in a catapult and fire them back at the Jerusalem walls).

Straight facts Boaz (sadly from the encyclopedia britannica and biblica)..
Don't fool yourself.

Fellow Human,
1) “The only thing that happened to a non muslim was the Gizyah (ie 5% tax rate) for being exempted from the army/ military service”
I think this is not an accurate picture of what happened under Mohammed or under later Islam…

2) “Please compare the same period up to the spanish inquisition what happened to Muslims and Jews …Torched alive? forced conversion? mosques and temples looted and turned into churches? What happened to jews during the inquisition and in Christian Europe up to (and included the holocaust)?.
Are you suggesting that such things did not also happen under Islamic rule ?
Even up to the present, I can point to forced conversions, temple/church burnings/bombings & inquisition like decisions in Islamic courts …

What are your thoughts?

F.H. (and Perilous) you missed my point.
When I asked for 'source' I am always referring to the earlierst one.
Pericles simply pasted something many layers removed from such early sources. I'm asking if your source is the Hadith or a Biography ?
Which then leads to a further step in the discussion.

F.H. I understand your comment and your report of the relations of Mohammad and 'the companions' with Jews and Christians, but while you point to the Inquisition which is many centuries removed from the founder and foundations of Christianity, Mohammad and the Companions 'were' the founder and foundations of Islam, and your 'spin' (selectively good) did not address the 'dark side' of their relations which include the massacre of the Jews of Qurayza, the invasion of Kaybar and the 50% tax (Jizya) on the Khaybar Jews, nor Caliph Omars total explusion of all Jews from the Arabian Peninsula.

But more importantly, you avoided the actual meaning of the Quran 9:30

Lets re-iterate, it curses and calls for divine destruction of Christians and Jews NOT for the breaking of a treaty or the such like but for the specific reason that they have a belief in a 'son' of Allah.

Now..this is crucial. It is also a public record that Islam is very strong on 'Ascribe no partners with Allah' and maybe just maybe that verse is one which contributes to this ?

So, could you explain the meaning of 9:30 please ?

This relates to the topic how ? Simple, if Muslim Arabs believe the Quran and it condems Jews and Christians for their most fundamental beliefs, who can see any possibility of 'standing together' ?

I'd like to know also how the claim of 'Jews regard Uzair as son of Allah' which is plainly incorrect, impacts on the 'inspiration' of the Quran ? :)

FH I and others will be making strong use of that Quran verse in future activities, so a good response would be advisable.

I think I have discovered your problem, Boaz.

You honestly and sincerely believe that every Muslim is a fanatic. Perhaps this is a reflection of your own attitude towards your own religion which is, you have to admit, just a tad on the fanatical side.

But to ascribe evil motives to every human being who follows Islam, simply because of some verses that were written a millennium and a half ago, is taking things just a little far.

As Jesus once said "... those mine enemies, which would not that I reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me" Luke 19:27

I am aware that he "spake a parable" in imparting this instruction, but there can be little argument, surely, that whoever wrote this was making exactly the same point: it is ok to kill non-believers.

Or is there perhaps another way I should interpret this instruction? Putting it into context (as you are so fond of doing) this gospel was written by someone who wasn't an eyewitness, so he was simply putting a whole load of stuff together as supporting documentation for a nascent religion.

Do you see the similarity here? The writer of Luke's gospel was making a point, rather strongly, of what happens to non-believers - even going so far as to put the words into Jesus' own mouth.

I'd be happy to accept that he might have been mistaken, or the people who reported it to him had somehow slipped up, or maybe that he was just adding some colour to the narrative.

Or maybe it was a metaphor?

Whadd'ye reckon?

Horus,

Comparing likes to likes throughout history (ie same actions, same period same cultures) Muslims were a lot kinder and tolerant in comparison with, say Christians of the same period in the same era.

If you lived in the middle ages and you were, say a Christian or a jew, you had a choice of Gizya (ie defence tax for being expemted from the military and have the right to practice your faith). A muslim (in spain, north Africa, Middle east, Jerusalem) had no choice.

The reason being Islam at the very core (ie the Quran) believes in prophets of Judaism and Christianity and their followers as people of the book. The only Muslim leader throughout this ear who discriminated against Christian believers was ‘elhakem’ who burned down a church in the period of 990AD to 1000 AD. What did the Muslims community leaders do at the time? They put their collective efforts to rebuild the church from their own volunteer work.
In contrast, the Bible teaches that all non-Christians are pagans and hence tolerance becomes a personal choice.

The Haya Sofia church which was turned into a mosque was an act of tribalism by the ottoman and to be fair, there was a precedent in spain: the Masquitta cathedral used to be the largest mosque in Europe and was made into a church after the slaughter of 8000 muslims.

Boaz,

Every Muslim knows that 9:30 got nothing to do with faith or interfaith but deal strictly with war and defence when a nation is suffering military aggression, war and treason and the likes. And it clearly rejects transgression.

You still didn’t answer my challenge above:

“Comparing likes to likes what happened to Muslims and Jews on the hands of their ‘Christian brothers’ throughout history?

Try and ‘spin’ an answer because I got a better challenge waiting.