FH,

As you have repeated a few times your purpose here is to correct misrepresentation and misunderstanding about Islam, I put it to you that your intention is misguided.

This is because Islam itself is a big "if " that cannot possibly withstand the test of frank and open logical analysis & reasoning.

All that you are doing is to correct misrepresentation and misunderstanding of a big "IF".

I disagree with claims that Islam is logical. Still, it's your personal choice to believe.

Like I mentioned : "A mountain of teachings not based on the truth, is nothing but futile".

So whenever you think you are pointing someone to a "true" Islam, may the word "futile" also come into your mind.

- - - - - - -
CJ Morgan,
Why do you ask me about Virgin Birth and Resurrection??
Have I told you to believe anything, (except a hint that you reason poorly)?
Don't you know that Muhammad had borrowed from Judaism and Christianity (including virgin birth)? Ask FH to explain to you the virgin birth then.

- - - - - - -
To everybody - Here is a web-site, highly recommended:

http://www.faithfreedom.org

Dear Pericles, Can you show me where I have ever said "All Muslims are Fanatics"? I have SPECIFICALLY stated that my issue is with "Islam" and has nothing to do with average Muslims.

It's good that you make reference to Christ's parable so we can clear it up once and for all. It's a most instructive parable.

It is basically a story about Creation, the allocation of Stewardship about the Word of God, and judgement.
Judgement is not in this life, it is on the 'Day of Judgement' which Muslims happily concede is a reality we must all face.
The 'bring those enemies of mine here and slay them' is not at all about justifying an early execution of enemies, it is a portrayal of final judgement. This is clear from the fact that Jesus is speaking in a parable, he is not teaching "Thus says the Lord...you shall not covet"

Now..the central issue here in relation to my claim about Quranic teaching 9:30 is whether it relates to earthly life or the day of Judgement.

F.H. listen up old son :)
Reference http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/009.030.html

CONTEXT of Quran 9:30

The commentary of Ibn Katheer states, "this is an appeal (ighraa') to the believers to battle the unbelievers (kufaar) from among the Jews and Christians."

1/ Physical EARTHLY fighting.
2/ Real world actual context.
3/ Calling for the real, actual 'in the here and now' destruction of Jews and Christians.

BECAUSE ...... they 'associate partners with Allah' for which (4:116)Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him....
-"A simple statement of fact" no contextual interpretation required.

F.H. this is not 'illegitimately' cherry picking verses. My presentation here is tantamount to looking at specific verses in the Old Testament such as 'The 1st Commandment' which can be taken by itself with no contextual interpretation needed.
I could then go to some passage in Isaiah where Idolatry is condemned, and take it as "applicable" in isolation from the context.

So, in terms of the topic, I find it difficult to accept that Muslims will ever be at peace with Jews.

GZ_tan
I think that in one post you mentioned that you had lived in a Muslim country, and was discontent with that. Was it perhaps Malaysia. I am guessing but you name sounds Chinese. If so your problem may have been racial/cultural one rather religious.

Fellow_Human
Please don't give up. I did not know about Tunisia. Islam was well ahead of Christianity in the middle ages. For its time it was very tolerant. I am sure that it will be again. We need more people like you.

David Boaz
Many would question your beliefs. But Jesus preached peace. Mohamed lived in a different environment to Jesus. I believe both men preached
according to the needs of their time. Both faiths have been badly abused. At the moment sections of Islam are creating havoc but all religions have done that at some time. But Fascism was worse than anything, and in Germany had a non religious background.

To put things straight I was brought up with a modern Anglo Australian religious Jewish background. I no longer believe that Moses spoke directly to a God, never believed that the God had a son or that there was ever an Angel Gabriel. But I have noticed that religion is often an agent for goodness.
Evil thrives when good people do nothing.

Well there you go - I had a feeling that GZ Tan wouldn't rise to his own challenge. And Boazy's still rattling on about the evils inerent in Islam, based on his very skewed interpretation of the Q'uran.

The thing is that, from the agnostic position where I sit, this is quite simply a case of the Christian firebrands here repeating endlessly their conviction that their books of Holy myths are better than those of the Muslims - based on nothing more than their belief that this is so. In the cases of extremists like GZ Tan, Boazy and some other regulars here, to a dispassionate observer it certainly appears that the great majority of hate expressed in this forum emanates from their (Christian) camp, as opposed to the Muslims who post here.

The Muslims who post here at OLO also invariably display much better manners than their detractors. I have no great sympathy for either religion, but I would much prefer to have well-mannered Muslim neighbours who quietly observe their faith and go about their business, than to have to put up with rabid Christian evangelicals like those we are subjected to here all too regularly.

Logic,
We both (should) know that unfortunately Islamic extremism is not some exotic Malaysian malady…

MC Morgan,
“I would much prefer to have well-mannered Muslim neighbours who quietly observe their faith and go about their business”
Wouldn’t we all!
But more to the point - if Islam was in a position of dominance -Would they still be so mild mannered ?

And lets take a hypothetical situation (one that is so far fetched it could never come about in real life!)
Say your girl friend or your wife went for a walk & she was brutalised by the police because her scarf sat too far back on the head .
Would you still be so objective & aloof ?

Fellow-Human
[ You’re not responsible for the whole of Islam- and I don’t propose to try to hold you accountable]
But Tell me …
Do you support the keeping of Saudi Arabia as an exclusively Islamic domain ( I mean it being the Islamic Vatican & all that ) Do you support its prohibition on the practice & preaching of other religions there?

To The Pakistani Interior Minister,
I salute you!
We need more people like you…
Pity you can’t write an article or two for OLO

Well of course you didn't, Boaz, you're far too cunning to fall into that trap.

>>Dear Pericles, Can you show me where I have ever said "All Muslims are Fanatics"?<<

As I have pointed out before, Oswald Mosley used the same defence.

"Our principle is complete religious toleration, and we certainly do not wish to persecute [Jews] on account of their race... Our quarrel with the Jewish interests is that they have set the interests of their co-racialists at home and abroad above the interest of the British state... An outstanding example of this is the persistent attempt of many Jewish interests to provoke the world disaster of another war between Britain and Germany" (Sir Oswald Mosley: Tomorrow we Live, 1938)

The parallels between Mosley's fear of the Jews provoking world war, and your fear that Islam is about to wage war on Christendom are scarily close. Both of you also pretend that you have nothing against Jews/Muslims individually, but then proceed to lump them all together as "Jewish interests"/Islam, and denigrate them at every opportunity.

Both of you protest to the heavens that you hold no ill-will towards individuals. So far, only one of you can be proven to be demonstrably telling porkies. But I am sure you must be beginning to see how I keep confusing your motives, that you profess to be so pure, with those of a 1930s Nazi.

Incidentally, your attempt to brush away the meaning and intent of "... those mine enemies, which would not that I reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me" is totally unconvincing. You say that it is...

>>...a story about Creation, the allocation of Stewardship about the Word of God, and judgement"

No it isn't.

It says "bring them hither, and slay them before me"

What could be clearer?