PigRig, If we are truly just mindless cosmic accidents, then there is no reason why anyone ought to condemn terrorism and mass murder. After all, such a horrible person would be just recycling collections of purposeless material in a purposeless universe.

Like it or not, it is Christianity that discusses love and happiness. Jesus' beatitudes are revolutionary, contradicting popular thinking about what makes us happy, and his basic rule is love.

Ignorance and fear come when you live in a purposeless existence that ignores the obvious mind behind everything, leading to a life that is going nowhere except to be recycled in a supposedly purposeless universe. What a waste!

People, who know history, can explain history directs politics, movements and theocrasia; just as an astronomer can can explain why inner planets trend towards non-geaseous and the larger outer planets are gaseous. Absolute knowledge isn't there with hyper-complex systems, but, there fundamentals are, yes, are, known.

[aside: Personally, I think Claudius is underrated, then again, I admire Jimmy Carter.]

The reason why you don't engage real history, suggests, seep down, the God you fear is, THE GORGON IN THE MIRROR, the truth.

My bottom line is, I have never seen the Forum debates being between theism and atheism, but, instead, between [open] knowledge and [contrived] ignorance. The churches have a big stake in the latter, via in worship, catechisms and articles of faith."

Runner,

CHRISTIANS

Ever heard of Adolf Hitler? Ever heard of Slavery, Ever heard of Hiroshima? Ever heard of the Inquisitions? Ever heard of the Crusades? Every heard of the Klu Klux Klan?

AND OF CHRISTIAN GOD;

Ever heard of Smitting, plagues, floods and droughts?

Candide, great posts! I share a similar experience to you,
although I'm not into the religious singing stuff, there is
much better music around then that :)

Tassie Tiger, why would life not have meaning without
praying to some imaginary God? Sheesh, you have not
lived yet! Life is full of meaning and purpose, but
its up to you to decide what you want it to be.

Once the worms have chewed you up, what will continue
is your dna, through your kids. So naturally most people
focus on their kids, grandkids etc. Not only in humans,
in other species too.

Other then that, I know amazingly happy people who have
determined their own passions and purposes which fill
their lives. If Edison had not been so passionate about
inventing new things, you could well be sitting
in the dark :) The list is endless.

Its amazing how Xtians talk of the Jesus love story,
but ignore the old testament, where the old boy was clearly
a violent, mean thing.

Runner, the leaders of the Xtian church, ie the popes,
used to have heretics like us burnt at the stake. Oops,
clearly the Jesus loves you story is not so correct.
Allah loves you too, until you do the wrong thing by
his church.

Fact is, as a social species, the basics of our morality
is part of our evolution. Species that help each other,
share, don't kill each other etc, have better prospects
then species who kill each other, which soon go extinct.
Read up some primatology, such as De Waal's "Good Natured"
the origins of right and wrong in humans and other animals.
You'll find that other primates are far more like us
then you would have ever dreamed

"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy" William Shakespeare.

I tend to agree with old Willie on this one and in so doing I do not dismiss the idea of there being a God. However I have trouble in accepting religious doctrines and have many intellectuaL discourses with my devout baptist daughter who reads to me passages from biblical books.

I have attended both the solemn services in my youth and the modern services with my daughter and I much prefer the modern services.

Maybe the service that the author attended wasnt particularly well run. I have noticed that all ministries are not equal and some are just so much better than others. Why does a true man of God need robes to prove it. That special something will be obvious to all who come into his church or presence. Jesus needed no special adornment. If a man isnt truly holy clothes will make no difference except to act as a masquerade.

Sells,

I found 'Truth of God' and 'Hidden Reality' type theology attenuated,closed and deeply dissatisfying and have long since moved on from there.

The reality of God is not 'hidden' or displaced to some other place beyond human experience but it is beyond the limits of language to express it. Hence God is approached in metaphor,image,parable and sacrament not asan unknowable mystery butasan inexpressible dimension of common human being. my Theology is bound bythe principle that it must operate within the horizon of ordinary human experience and be consequential. I know itis theological foolishness to 'seek a better world' but itis the point at which I choose tobe a fool for it seems to me worthy foolishness.

The raison-detre of Theology must pertain to realities that you and I and Peri can experience. If it does not have any effect in human experiencable reality then it is inconsequential. Be clear by this I do not imply any instrumentality in the liturgy. We do not control it in that sense, cannot manipulate it in terms of outcomes. That is why Liturgy isso dangerous and such serious play and why God-manipulating pop-worship is so desolate.

Phrases like 'Truth of God' and 'Hidden reality' fall short of being language worthy of Theology or Liturgy. They lack metaphorical power and therefore cannot be revelatory of the divine. They are closed,too certain,too specific and too concrete. Their time passed with the demise of TheologicalSystems. As life proceeds without certainty so too Theology proceeds without certainty and without closure. The Liturgy is not closed but proceeds from call to commission and returns us to our ordinary lives without answers or certainties. It can be likened to passing through a gate. The gate is open and on either side we are inthis world but passing through the gate can change our perspective,transpose us from being in the street to being in the garden. Certainty and closure are characteristics of death,not of life,so Theology (or Liturgy) that leaves us anywhere BUT hanging in mid-air is life-denying.

Finally,I forgive you for calling me an atheist. Peace be with you

Lovely post waterboy, typos aside :)

Notwithstanding my somewhat flippant comment above, my spiritual leanings aren't too far from you, Pericles and many of the more rational posters in this thread.

Sells' articles are often interesting, but almost always solely because they provide an insight into a particular kind of Christian worldview. Of course, this is the very same reason why some of us enjoy Boazy's prolific contributions about more prosaic topics :)

My eternally agnostic perspective is always enriched by engaging with religious types here, even if I'm occasionally a little more caustic than civil debate warrants.

Of course, these sentiments reflect a mellow mood occasioned in part by the consumption of chocolate and good red wine on a distinctly chilly day. Happy Babylonian fertility festival all!

Praise Ishtar :P