It never ceases to amaze me how much time human beings spend talking, thinking and writing about things that do not exist. I suppose that's why we do it, because reality is too boring and drab to accept as our lot.

Ah, Sells poor lad - seems to have never had the pleasure of a session or two in one of the halls of the Orthodox -- Greek, Russian, -- churches.
Never sat (or stood) as part of the over-generous attendance in one, and let the cadence of proceedings rise and fall as it washes over you?
Never had the music of it all absorb you, while appreciating the intricate artwork all around, and the demonstrated sincerity of those who brought it all together? Or known that such a temple of worship might have been made possible largely due to the voluntary contributions of an athiest - demonstrating that commitments might be more to the values of community tradition than to the narrow concerns of liturgy?
Let the benefits of community spirit prosper in peaceful diversity. Throw away the unhealthy corsets applicable to some long-since-deflowered dame of exclusive dogma.

DIVERSITY is good... when it comes to the Church. While I prattle away against multiculturalism, and those who claim 'diversity' enriches our society, I don't take the same position when it comes to 'The Church'.
The Body of Christ consists of the people, and there is no set method of worship. The concept of worship and fellowship are that we are one IN Christ. That does not mean we will all act exactly the same in worship or fellowship, but it does mean that we honour Christ and flee from sin. We don't have to flee from our social sub culture unless it infringes on the holiness of God.

Liturgical worship is indeed symbolism rich, but at times it can be fellowship poor. If no attempt is made to emphasise the spiritual reality in the daily life and experience of the believers then the liturgical experience will degenerate into something done as an end in itself, with the participants thinking they will benefit spiritually and before God simply by 'doing' the liturgy irrespective of how they conduct their lives outside that liturgical framework.

"I ALSO STOPPED GOING TO CHURCH" I hear some posters saying....so I ask you..did you ever have a relationship with Christ ? Was your church attendance an expression of love for Jesus ? I simply don't 'get' this "I stopped attending church" because the church started to annoy me thing. Well..I do get it, but it raises many questions in the mind.

FEAR.. is a good thing. Fear of consequences for doing wrong.. how can this be bad ? Fear of God is not a cringing fear, but a healthy one. If I drive up to Sydney and pass 3 signs in a row saying "Speed camera ahead" and I deliberately speed.... who can I blame for the fine ? We know the commandments, that they are for our good, should we not be scared to go against them deLIBerately ? The 'fear' of the Christian is not fear of imperfection, but of deliberate sin.

We Christians do not need to apologize for our faith. It is amazing that forensic science today can pinpoint who, when and how of a crime, but the forensic evidence for God, which is everywhere, is somehow described as idiotic. The Bible calls those fools who in their hearts claim that there is no God.

We Christians also do not need to apologize to each other for the wonderful cultural diversity contained in our various liturgies. There is no rule created by either Jesus or the Apostles as to what liturgical format to use. To make any such rules as mandatory and condemn those who prefer a less formal liturgy is more like religion of the Pharisees than that of Christ.

waterboy, I think you may be confusing means with end.

>>being an outsider, you care little about liturgy or the word proclaimed through it<<

You can take that to the bank. But I am vitally interested in people, what moves them and motivates them. And in that, Christians make fascinating subjects.

>>Im guessing you appreciate fine music<<

I do appreciate music. As to what "fine" means in this context, I assume you mean "traditional", in the same way that Sells views traditional liturgies as "fine".

But I have to point out that in order to get to a Bach Partita, the five year-old has to negotiate "Twinkle Twinkle" first. Listening to it may be hard for us, but we also know that it is an essential rite of passage, so we endure it.

Music has always had a profound, almost mystical impact on humans, which is one of the reasons that it has always formed such an influential part of religious occasions. It also appears to be the glue that binds the Hillsongers together. Theirs may be simpler, more juvenile and often quite silly, but it is still music.

It may have been "grander" to hear a cathedral choir singing a Palestrina Kyrie than Hillsong delivering "All Praises To The King", but I question whether it is all that different in its intent.

The dilemma for traditionalist Christians such as Sells is that they dislike it in the same way as my late father disliked the music of the Beatles - it simply did not fit into his world view of "music", in precisely the same way that Hillsong's liturgy does not fit into Sells concept of what it a liturgy should be.

The aim, surely, of a church is to find a way through the mass of distractions available to people in order to introduce them to religion. A far harder task today than it was before radio, television and the internet appeared.

Where once it was fashionable to present mystique and complex ceremonial, it is now fashionable to be informal and accessible.

Fashions change, that's all.

Now come on Peter, you can't be serious. What % of the population
bother with going to churches? 8-10% perhaps?

Religion was great when people were uneducated, uninformed
and gullible. Times have changed.

Yup, some need that imaginary friend, no problem, if it
keeps them happy. Just don't expect the rest of us to
take it any more seriously then Santa, the tooth fairy
or the hobbgobblins in your garden.

Fear and tremble for all you like Peter, just don't expect
the rest of us to join you. Fact is that heaven is here and
now, the worms will chew you up, like everyone else, when
you fall of the heavenly perch, as we all do.

BD will be chewed up no different to anyone else :)