spendocrat, if my son fights with neighbour A's son, then neighbour B's son, then neighbour C's son, then neighbour D's son, then neighbour E's son; something must be wrong with my son, not my neighbours' sons. This situation is happening now with Islam and other religions and political systems.

The follow is taken from a book by a devout Muslim preacher, "Islam in Practice" by Abuhuraira Abdurrahman (graduate from Islamic University, Medinah, Saudi Arabia) published by Perniagaan Jahabersa, Malaysia, www.jahabersa.com.my

"It is worth mentioning that the complete success of the pragmatic Islamization in the hand of the Messager of Allah could not be attributed to mere sermons rendered in mere various occasions, but it could be credited much to the backing of the coercive power of the then Islamic state founded by him at Medinah. It is historically substantiated that the Messager of Allah had spent 13 long years in preaching Islam through sermon in Mecca prior to his historic 'Hijrah' to Medinah, yet of no avail. But after having authority by establishing the 1st Islamic State at Medinah, which backed his Islamic call, astounding success was made. ....we can come to the final conclusion that full success in true Islamization is solely dependent on the establishment of a full-fledged Islamic State known as The Kingdom of God on earth." (pg xii-xiii)

Irfan, I am a secular liberal who believes that religion addresses the life hereafter.

Irfan, when I wrote 'significant doubts' I was being kind. It would have been better to have said, 'not worth the paper they are written on.' This is because it is impossible to tell which anecdotes are truthful amoung the hundreds of thousands of anecdotes that are fabricated fiction;

The following extract was written by the author Reza Aslan;

'Joseph Schacht’s extensive research on the development of the Shariah has shown how quite a large number of widely acknowledged hadith had their chains added conjecturally so as to make them appear more authentic….

But there is an even larger obstacle to using the Sunna of the Prophet as a primary source of law. As rigorous as scholars like al-Bukhari and Ibn al-Hajjaj were in scrutinising each hadith for the signs of correct transmission, the fact is that their method lacked any attempt at political or religious objectivity....While some hadith may in fact contain an authentic core that can be back to the Prophet and his earliest Companions, the truth is that the Sunna is a far better reflection of the opinions of the ninth-century Uluma than the seventh century Ummah. After all, to quote Jonathan Berkey, “It was not Muhammad himself who defined the Sunna, but rather a memory of him.” '

-NO GOD BUT GOD (2006), p164.

I'm sorry, but I need reasonably accurate 'historiography' before I can believe in talking angels and pregnant virgins. The 'history' of the Hadith is completely unreliable and unverifiable, and to liken it to a 'science' is to slander the good name of real science.

If the obvious and vast shortcomings of Islamic historiography were explained truthfully to Muslims by their clerics then anti-human idealologies like Wahabism would be starved of oxygen. And Australian society wouldn't have to put up with right-wing Saudi funded nutters like Imam Mohammad Swaiti.

By some accounts his Mosque in Canberra is a debacle. For example;

'Taxation office to probe Muslim cleric on Saudi cash'
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21403909-2,00.htm

The saddest part of the above news article is the final sentence where it describes the Wahabi Imam as having 'strong community support'. This community obviously needs to undergo detox and to have its reality restored.

Irfan, it's about time intelligent moderates like youself started to inform fundamentalist Muslim communities that their dogmatic historical certainties are not so certain after all!

Totally amazing ... another century to the Irf!!

Another Irfan piece penned to the tune of Bob Dylan's Stuck In The Middle With You:

"Clowns to the left of me!
Jokers to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle with you."

This "moderates appealing to moderates" tune to "keep a watch for the bad guy xenophobes all around" is a waste of time. As the Muslim population in Australia increases, the cultural divide between them and us will grow ever larger. As tensions grow, moderates on both sides of the divide will eventually be bundled out of the way, and the Muslim extremists will face off against the right-wing Aussies. I can't see Australia rolling over and playing dead like Europe is doing.

So the question for Irfan, who is seemingly intelligent, is why bother with the chit chat? I wonder about his motives ... distract and conquer?

Irfan would better spend his time reforming his religion into the shape of other religions in Australia i.e. an invisible and personal faith. Get it out of people's faces. Get it out of the papers. If you want to contribute to this country, make that your job Irfan. Otherwise the reformation will be done for you.

But Irfan never had any choice which is why he rushes to defend rather than offer understanding and explanation. Islam does not offer choice and neither does the Muslim community. It isn't just a religion. It's social governing and civil law, and not by election or popular demand. The fundamentalist have always driven society in one direction or another. Industrialist vs. socialist, religious vs. God is dead, etc. Today we have the God is dead socialist types driving policy which is why all religions have dug in their heels and a political right-wing response across much of the globe. Moving politically to the right was a response to left excesses. The Howard bashing or Blair bashing or Bush bashing started when these people began to campaign for office and there has been no let up since. Now that the left are campaigning it will begin for them. Irfan and Muslims are smart to await the appeasers and strong proponents of MC. Islam isn't just a religion it is law and culture. Culture rules. Irfan, don't be afraid of your cultural bigotry and social conservatism. Shout it from the roof tops. It will bring you more power and influence than your religion. It's your right.