YES.. the Grace of God is quite available to Bin Ladin, until his dying last breath.

Then is fulfilled

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

But up till that moment, if he repents, and gives his heart to God in Christ, Gods love is reaching out to him.

This sign is quite good in making the point of God's patience with us.

One of Osama's protege's Abu Izzadeen is a classic example of one closer to our turf.
http://timesnews.typepad.com/news/2006/09/desperately_see.html (Note the facial expression)

This man is the closest modern example of Paul the Apostle prior to his conversion. His enthusiasm to destroy, oppose and wipe out is totally fanatical. His knowledge of Arabic seems astounding, he ability to rant very impressive. So, when you look at this face, and the reports of his words, please think of the man Paul, and realize just how great was Gods act of intervention in transforming this mans life.

Can any one imagine this man, or Osama writing as follows: (1 Cor 13)

[If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.]

That....is the love which overcomes all the Osama's and Izzadeens of this world.....if they repent.

I like the rest of humanity am a created being, these beings live for about 70 years on average or perhaps a little less and after this 'brief' life then comes eternity or timelessness where we will live in another dimension.
Now, as some, I cannot change what I see as God's plan for ALL humanity. The Bible plainly states that as in Adam ALL die and in Christ ALL are made alive (or words to that effect)Christ gave His life not for all the 'goody-goody two shoes' He is the Saviour of ALL mankind. Even those hate filled rather stupid Christians who have condemned all but baptised Christians to an eternity of torture in their pagan hell-fire. This ever torturing hell-fire does NOT exist never has and never will. God would have ALL men saved that's A-L-L. Bin-Laden (or whatever this deceived clowns name is) Adolf Hitler and ALL his cronies, Mao Tse Tung ,Gengis Khan, Attila the Hun, ALL pagan moslems,hindus,buddhists, Taoists, atheists and ALL their silly crowd the various head hunters and cannibals where ever they do or have lived. Sounds horrible to us mortals eh? But the great God of love has a plan to save ALL mankind and He will save A-L-L mankind and nobody physical or spiritual, genius or clown, can or will stop Him from carrying out this wonderful plan. Regards, numbat

So you’re telling us your imaginary friend loves someone who organised the death of 4000 plus people?

You might love your child when they do something wrong and forgive them and from that perspective I can see the point; but planning murder? Carrying it out? Wouldn’t you be a bit miffed (at the least)?

Did God love the people in the world trade center so much he let them die horribly? What kind of love is that? Where is God’s justice there? Where was God then? In the cockpit? You’d have to assume from the evidence that God was not blessing America on 9/11.

I find the whole concept of God loving mass murders, dictators etc bizarre (I find it equally strange that Alan Soden conciders me to be a sinner when we’ve never met) – God clearly wasn’t concerned with Justice or love when he happily let all those people die at the hands of the same people who Rod claims “In fact, I can say on biblical authority that Jesus died for Osama, and desires that he and others like him (even worse than him) should share the pleasures and joys of heaven forever” -- It’ll be a fun day in heaven when they all meet.

The logic there seems to imply its ok what you do down here, God loves you and forgives your sins so it’s ok. Anyone think that will stand up in court?

For those of you who are interested in God’s selective behaviour I’d recommend http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com (or anything by Richard Dawkins).

Good article, and a great thought-provoking poster campaign - congratulations to whoever thought it up.

It's all too easy to fall into the trap of assuming that God's love is conditional on, or proportional, to how we behave.

Sometimes, too, forgiveness is the most effective spur to repentance – as Paul says “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads”

I must say, it's nice to see the tolerant, "love thy neighbour" style of Christianity being reinforced. We hear so much from the loud bigoted minority that it's easy to forget these messages.

It'd be nice if more religions could take it a step further, and say that if god loves anyone anyway, then perhaps he doesn't care which religion you adhere to as long as you're a good person.

Rationally, I could conceivably believe in a neutral god that doesn't care, or I could conceivably believe in a loving god that embraces all, or at least, those who do good.

The only god I dismiss as unbelievable, is the kind that discriminates on the basis of religion as opposed to morality.
I couldn't make myself believe in a god that cared about about thousand year old superstitious rituals, even if I tried.

Yet ritualistic religion seems to remain the bedrock of belief, and it boggles me as to why.

And what is god's loving plan for those who see things a bit differently

A sampling I prepared earlier for another thread

Revelation 6:2 - I looked and there before me was a white horse! It's rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Revelation 8:7 - The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

Revelation 9:4,5 - They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Revelation 9:15 - And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

So when someone tells you about a god of love remember that in their book that same god is keeping four angels prepped to kill a third of us. That same loving god plans 5 months of extreme torture for us. That same god reportedly plans an eternity of torment for those of us who don't see his plan as good news.

If that's love count me out.

R0bert

Some very good examples here of the clay telling the Potter how He should shape things. It is sheer arrogrance to suggest God does not love mankind after all God did for humanity in sending Christ to pay for our sins. Choose to reject God's love and you are choosing your own destiny, Just don't blame God or anyone else but yourself. Its funny those who claim they don't believe, argue the hardest for their own morality.

Charger: I can well understand what you are saying but remember you are a dribbling,piddling mortal human just like me :-) Now if God did not save everyone then He is a failure, and Christ as the Saviour of all mankind would be a total failure. It has been said that there has been 65 billion people on earth now stretching the parameters we could say that 5 billion are "worthy?" of salvation. Which means that the loving Creator God will have to feed 60 billion into the pagan ever burning torturous hell-fire - this from the God of love - NO-WAY! The same God that inspired Christ Jesus to command us to forgive our enemies, told Peter to forgive not 7 times but 70 times 7. Do you think that this God having inspired this would do any different - NO-WAY!
The best way I can descibe what I am on about is as follows - We created humans are like a group of children in a play pen hitting each other over the head with a spade and/or bucket and throwing sand in each others eyes. That's us as humans but as childhood only lasts for a short time then so our sojourn on this globe only lasts for a very short time. If you or I or my lovely wife were born into Bin -Ladens family we would be the same as he is. If we were born in Germany/Russia or anywhere else we would/could be another Hitler, Stalin or any of their henchmen or women. We are what we are because we have been born in Oz with all our many freedoms. God thinks in a vastly different manner as we dribbling piddling mortal humans. And what's wrong with saving every human being? Christians can repent others can't - but they will be given this wonderful opportunty in the future - as they have never been told and if told today would not believe for this they should be totally destroyed - NO-WAY! Boy I am so glad that God is in charge. Regards, numbat

Why wouldn't Jesus love Osama? Could Jesus not love Osama and still deplore Osama's twisted sense of justice through murder of innocent others? Both young brainwashed jihadist and their victims of the al-Qeada religious extremism.
Does his father not love him regardless of the shame of being a terrorist leader. Killer of innocents. Killer of Muslims. As disappointed as any father would be could he stop the love for a son? A child of his?

Numbat, I think you mean 6.5 billion (not 65 billion surely!) -- I think the main issue here is that people believe a supernatural entity is in charge. No doubt Osama believes his version of God is in charge. You’re glad your version of God is in charge.

At least one of you is wrong (or both of you to be more accurate). The only people in charge are us -- dribbling, piddling mortals.

God’s in charge and Jesus loves Osama. Jesus doesn’t love Osama as Jesus doesn’t exits. No matter how much you want it to be, its not.

It’s only people who (might?) love Osama. I’d be reasonable confident that Osama’s parents loved him. Terry Hick’s father loves his son no matter what his son is accused of. That is a natural human emotion; not a divinely inspired one.

R0bert’s post show us all exactly what kind of love God has for anyone who doesn’t believe in the bible’s version of God.

Do you think that includes Osama as well?

This has been attributed to several people but it's as relevant today as it ever was -

"Good men will tend to do good things and evil men will tend to do evil things, but to make good men do evil, this usually involves Religion".

If you're selling salvation, include an escape clause and you can excuse everything.

Why doesn't God appear in my kitchen and say "It's true Sharkfin I really do exist." Why all the need for secrecy?

Then we could have a chat and clear up some of the modern day questions like Euthanasia. Like "God did you let us discover these modern day drugs so that we could use them to die easily?"

I'm sure God will make his own judgement about Osama Bin Laden so we shouldn't worry our tiny human minds about it.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if mankind could all believe in God fullstop; without the need to fight over different interpretations of God.

How could he? He has been dead for 2,000 years.

My missus reckons Osama's a bit of a spunk. I mean, he does look a bit like Mick Fleetwood :)

Boazy's astounded at the man's knowledge of Arabic.... um, Boazy - he's an ARAB - of course his Arabic is better than yours.

Maybe you could apply that principle to the experience of Islam by actual Muslims, as opposed to your blinkered view of their religion. To many of us, people like you are potentially as problematic as Osama, because you delight in fomenting potentially violent conflict in the name of your God.

On the basis of the reported philospophies of Jesus, he certainly had some wonderful ideas, but these seem at odds with much of what is also reported in, for example, the Old Testament. It seems to me that much of the mythology and philosophy of the Old Testament is shared by Christians, Mulsims, and of course Jews.

Therefore I tend to roll my eyes when the Christian evangelists in this forum attempt to discredit Islam on the basis of their flawed 'hermeneutics', or interpretation of Islamic texts from a very hostile perspective.

Unfortunately, these 'god-botherers' seem to be unduly influential among certain politicians, shock-jocks and tabloid hacks of late. I suppose that's one reason I bother to make comments in forums like this ;)

What is happening to us when some Christians are getting so mixed up, I again have to look to Boaz for some commonsense.

The Baptists seem to think they have a hotline with God. They claim to KNOW that God loves Osama. Really? Did he call you on the Baptist hotline and tell you from heaven's call centre.

You assume you know what God is thinking, planning, judging. Excuse me but how dare you? Be honest with us. You really wouldn't have a clue, would you?

What arrogance you have after this dreadful war, it is sickening. They still haven't caught this horrible creature, and you say in your white robes, alas, God loves him. Hands up those sensible Australians whose eyes didn't narrow at this statement. There maybe Bible references, but this is the wrong time to offend so many dead people.

They are not that different to that crazy Baptist group in Pensylvania that disrupted an Amish funeral saying that God hated the Amish girls that were murdered at a school. Their signs said: God hates all Amish, God hates the US. God hates stuts. Their excuse? Far better to be murdered as childred than be raised in that "awful heathen religion", as "sinful" Amish.

This case last year really made people question what arrogance it takes to be a Baptist.

I guess they had a hotline from God too.

Batists KNOW how God thinks, they must be psychic.

Maybe they can have a "GOD 1900" number that tells you God's thoughts of the day. Baptists know. They have all the answers.

I think Rod is being too provocative here. In the same vein - why not put out a sign that says "Jesus loves Mr. Baldy" or "Jesus loves Hakeem Hakeem" (the Sudanese serial rapist who raped and bashed a granny in her home before slashing her throat) or "Jesus loves Dr Patel" (The QLD doctor that killed over a dozen patients thru sheer malpractice)?

You may even have noted that when Jesus began his ministry he didn't hang a sign outside his front door - saying "Yahweh loves Herod (the king who killed all the Jewish baby boys)". Now why's that?

The Bible does instruct us to be wise and careful in our speech and behavior so that we do not bring disrepute to our Lord - not place unnecessary obstacles that may deter people from seeking salvation.

I think I'd prefer if Rod and gang stopped pulling off stunts like "Jesus loves Osama" and travel to Muslim nations to preach the gospel - as Jesus has commandered us, his believers to do.

If he went to Mecca, Sudan, Indonesia or Malaysia and preach the Gospel of Salvation there- that would do more good than what he is currently doing now.

All he is succeeding is turning people away from the Gospel thru his controversial actions.

People are such suckers it's astounding. I just can't see how the Baptists or Uniting church are considered religions at all when they are nothing of the sort. They are socialists using religion for their own hypocritical, ideologically driven purposes and that is all.

The "Reverend" Rod Benson may as well have received his accreditation out of a corn flakes box. He answers to an authority far, far higher than a mere God. This new megaGod has a name that starts with 'M', ends in 'x' and has an 'ar' in the middle. They just call him 'Karl'.

I consider Scientologists as more grounded in reality than either of them, at least as removed in any case.

Go away Benson, you fraud.

CHARGER

how can God love a murderer ?

Simple. Paul.

Acts 8:3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Does this not remind you of the dragging out of the Jews from house to house by the Nazi's ? Yet this man wrote most of the New Testament.

CJ. I was not referring to Osama's arabic you dill, it was Omar Brooks's (Now called Abu Izzadeen, now called 'HELP... THEY ARRESTED ME AND ITS A POLICE STATE HERE IN UK AND I CAN'T RANT ANY MORE')

By the way, if you didn't post here, life would be much less meaningful :)

RObert - "count me out" - unfortunately that will be the beginning of your torment in hell. Revelations? That's the last chapter, the things to come. Go back a few pages mate and re-read that part about how you save yourself while you still can.

It is humorous to read some of the above comments - how ignorant people would like to shape God to their “superior” intellect, when most of them (non-believers) will tell you without a moment of hesitation that they come from an Ape…

In his last hour on the cross Jesus was surrounded by two criminals. One of them believed in Him and was saved. The other challenged His Divinity and missed the opportunity.

So it will be for all you clever people who feel superior to their Creator.

Of course God loves Osama and ALL Muslims even if they have been deluded by their leaders and believe otherwise.

God so loved the WORLD that He came to die a criminal’s death for each one of us. God paid the penalty on our behalf.

We don’t owe Him anything. It’s been Paid in Full. No need for rituals or religiosities. No one can impress God to enter heaven.

It’s God's way (Jesus) or nothing.

God also so loved the world that He gave us all the freedom to choose our ultimate destiny.

Accept Jesus and you are saved NOW and for Eternity –

Don’t and you will burn in hell with RObert.

Really Simple.

Well said wyliewilde.
It's a sign of the times when a church starts using shock advertising to get their message across, even if it might be well meaning.
I guess its success depends on what its purpose is.
If they're trying to get more people to go to church then i doubt it will do much, but if they're trying to spark controversy and discussions about Jesus then looks like they've achieved that, at least here on this forum anyway :)

Coach: "how ignorant people would like to shape God to their “superior” intellect,"

and "Don’t and you will burn in hell with RObert"

Coach. Seems to me you're prejudging what god thinks. Ouch.

If your god burns people in hell for something as trivial as doubting him/her/it/they/OS v1.25 then I want nothing to do with him/her/it/they/OS v1.25

Evidently however, in your pride you've presumed to guess your god's motives. I suppose you'll be joining the rest of the burning brigade in your god's bigger badder version of sitting in the corner.

Actually, I think Srekwah's comments take the cake. Just goes to shows the wild ones can come from both sides of the fence.

What an amusing thread. It's a good thing any remotely sensible god wouldn't care about this kind of trivial guff.

As a former Christian I am very interested in threads such as this one.

Even though I am now agnostic (bordering on atheist), I still feel that the belief that God loves EVERYONE is one of the great strengths of the Christian religion.

The posters of "Jesus loves Osama" would not have turned me away from the church, nor do I find them offensive now. They embody a concept which, sadly, even many professed Christians don't seem to understand.

To Strewkah and Wyliewild and Rhys.. a warm welcome to OLO.. I've not seen you before, so, rightly or wrongly I'll assume u are new.

Wylie has a point about the proclamation, but don't let that stop some creative ways of communicating Gods truth. We may not all agree with the sign, but as one of you observed "if it was to get people talking about Jesus...it worked" and it sure did.
I find it wonderful that we are simply discussing the issue of Christ and Salvation and the Gospel.

Paul did this in the market place and they synagogue and from house to house. Perhaps we can add 'from forum to forum'.

I have some creative ways of getting truth about Christ across also, but have not yet implemented many. One is to have a large banner in Federation Square saying 'One Nation, One Race, One Culture'.. but the people underneath it will contradict the sign, because they will be clearly of many different races. The handout will quote Galatians 3:36 "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, but we all one in Him"...something along those lines.

The first lesson of communication is GET THEIR ATTENTION... the rest is easy :) But if you don't have it.. you can spend the next 100 hours speaking wonderful, intelligent and eloquent truths which no one is listening to.

So, I give Reverend Rod 100% for 'Getting Attention', maybe only a pass for content.

For those who feel unhappy with Coaches rather 'blunt'mentioning of hell etc.. We are all mature and know enough about Christianity to understand this aspect of the faith.
Coach will not determine your destiny. You will. He is warning the man in the stalled car on the rail crossing of the freight train hurtling along at him.... anyone who chooses to stay in the car can do so at their own risk, but in terms of Coaches understanding of the Gospel, he is speaking truth. I would not maybe approach it in the same way, but truth it is.

Charger

"So you’re telling us your imaginary friend loves someone who organised the death of 4000 plus people?

You might love your child when they do something wrong and forgive them and from that perspective I can see the point; but planning murder? Carrying it out? Wouldn’t you be a bit miffed (at the least)?

Did God love the people in the world trade center so much he let them die horribly? What kind of love is that? Where is God’s justice there? Where was God then? In the cockpit? You’d have to assume from the evidence that God was not blessing America on 9/11."

Maybe God was being ignored?

Do the people who proclaim "JESUS LOVES OSAMA" understand that he also loves John Howard and He loved Augusto Pinochet. (I'm not implying that the two are equivalent.)

Jesus also loves the two teenagers who raped, beat and strangled to death 73-year-old grandmother Marie Greening Zidan in Melbourne in October 2000.

See:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/19/1084917640356.html?from=storylhs

Jesus loves them even though they phoned Mrs. Zidan's daughter and left a taunting message on her voice mail.

Jesus loved the late Jeffrey Darma, the real live Hannibal Lecter who ate his many victims.

Jesus loves all those paedophile priests who ruined many lives. He also loves the bishops who covered up the paedophile-priests' misdeeds.

And Jesus loves George Bush.

Jesus loved Adolph Hitler and Joe Stalin.

Just thought I'd get this into perspective.

It is all about getting attention in an increasingly hedonistic world that ignores traditional religions,but it also plays right into the hands of Muslim Facism.

Unfortunately we are creatures that have advanced too quickly technologically and in genetic terms are unable to cope both emotionally an intellectually.This means we will be incapable of seeing our own shortcomings when our world becomes unstuck.

Ego,empathy,compassion has been both our friend and foe.Too many people,nuclear weapons everywhere,pollution,climate change will all come to a head in the near future.

Our collective consciousness and specialisation has brought us a temporary reprieve from our subsistance origins,but we as individuals do not have a grasp of the total mosaic that will determine our destinies.

We in Australia have lived our halcyon days in the post WW2 era.Those who went through the hardship of the depression and WW2 were willing to engage in real sacrifice for their children,I don't see any real evidence of this in many of our present generation.

I hope the future reality will make me a liar.

Here is a challenge to the airheads in the Baptist Church.

Publish this list of people Jesus loves or loved.

President Umar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir, President of Sudan and chief perpetrator of the Darfur genocide. (See http://www.savedarfur.org/pages/multimedia)

Kim Jong-Il, North Korea's "Dear Leader." It is estimated that during the North Korean famine of the mid to late 90s some 4% of North Koreans starved to death. The famine was due entirely to Kim Jong-Il's insane rule.

Adolph Eichman and all the prison guards at Auschwitz

Pol Pot (Perhaps as many as a million Cambodians died because of Pol Pot)

Idi Amin

Sheikh Omar, leader of the Taleban regime in Afghanistan.

Maqbool Ahmed and Muhammad Aslam who beat their sister to death. It was an "honour killing." See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,2007384,00.html

Robert Willie and Joseph Vaccaro. They raped 17-year-old Faith Hathaway, stabbed her 17 times and then raped her again after she had died. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/reporternote.html

Frederick Albert Vonderwall who raped children under the age of 12. See http://www.crimenet.com.au/show_editorial.phtml?sid=c1eca40349df67f86fe1fd304079f318&id=795

Heinrich Himmler, head of the Nazi SS

The perpetrators of the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre. See http://www.oradour.info/ruined/summary.htm

Excerpt:

"Whilst these killings were taking place, the soldiers searched the town for any people who had evaded the initial roundup and killed them were they found them...A BABY WAS BAKED TO DEATH IN THE LOCAL BAKERY OVENS,..."

Lt. William Calley, one of the perpetrators of the My Lai massacre. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Excerpt:

"Nevertheless, the American soldiers, one platoon which was led by Lt William Calley, killed hundreds of civilians — primarily old men, women, children and babies. Dozens were herded into a ditch and executed with automatic firearms. At one stage, Calley expressed his intent to throw hand grenades into a trench filled with villagers."

How do we get dragged so far away from the thread? It is always by some who want to push an opinion few would share.
The idea that Jesus loves this evil person is a concern.
Just maybe it again is time to ask how can we discard others Gods, so very many of them, and place so much trust in the one we invented?
The one I would invent if I felt the need would say all men of any color are equale and no one must kill or damage anyone in his/her name.
But my Gods preasts if that is what he/she wanted to call them would not live in a world of brotherly love that also is an invention a foolish not yet existing one.

coach,

"Accept Jesus and you are saved NOW and for Eternity –
Don’t and you will burn in hell with RObert."

Now coach you are making a direct threat against my well being. Thankfully a toothless threat as your imaginary friend is never going to carry it out.

On other threads you carry on about the Quran speaking harm to christains and here you are speaking harm to those who don't follow your own primitive death cult.

Now where is the difference?

R0bert

No1. There is NO!-that's- NO! everlasting torturous sadistic, satanic hell as is taught and believed by many Christians. This hell is pagan, this concept began in Egypt and carried on to the Catholic Church thence to the majority of believers in the majority of the churches.
No2. Some say that unless a person accepts Christ then it is eternal foul and exceedingly cruel punishment and this from the God of love!! NO-ONE can accept Christ one has to be drawn/dragged by the Father to recognise the Christ of the Bible, the Son of God. Well that's what my Bible says then one lives by the faith of Christ not there own pathetic faith. So if a person does not see Christ then that person has not been drawn or dragged so this person's unbelief is the fault of God the Father, but the Father has a plan to save EVERYONE that has ever lived or will ever live-WELL that's fair isn't. Regards, numbat

I really enjoyed this article, the Osama sign, and the conversation it has generated. I think you missed the opportunity to talk about one of Jesus' favourite topics though- repentance. Yes, the Love of God is extended to every single human being on Earth, whether it is reciprocated or not. And yes, Jesus would love each of us to spend eternity in heaven with God. But while you alluded to God's justice, you didn't quite drag it out. The Bible says the wages of sin is death (which can mean physical death and/or eternal "separation" from God). If we refuse to repent and accept Jesus' free forgiveness, we ourselves will have to pay for all the ways we have fallen short of God's glory. If we repent (acknowledge that what we did was wrong and turn from it) and accept Jesus' free forgiveness, then we will not ourselves have to pay for all the ways we have fallen short of God's glory. This is grace and it is extended to everybody- regardless of race, class, age, sex, etc. However it is NEVER forced and it is not ours unless we take it :).

@ *The Church of the Mystic Christ*
Oz's 1st Independent Church werein we Marry *Gays* & have Female Priests, we say:

"All Who WILL May Come."

& if we may b of assistance in producing an atmosphere conducive with "supping" with our "Living" Lord then that is our privelege.
...
They stalked the beautiful young Islamic girl child to her home in Iraq, slaughtered her family, raped her then executed her in cold blood & burnt her body. (ref the writings of "Sir" Robert Fisk as can be tracked through google searchable international forums, a true Knight of the Old Order.)
...
The americ_nt militants responsible were "honourabley" discharged with "Personality Disorders," and this is but the tip of the ice berg when it comes to the depravity of the *Cynagogue of Satan*
...
As long as the anglo militant alliance holds itself above & beyond "The Law&Justice," the *Freedom Fighters of Islam* will make war upon U - @ least this is my understanding from 1 on 1 conversations with Islamic Priests in Indonesia.
...
Osama is not a "terrorist" but rather, he is the natural response of those who Believe in "An Eye for Eye" 2 centuries of abuse & predation by the west. The kill ratio has got to be in excess of 1000:1 & accordingly, I would assume that *Osama et al* consider they have some catch up to do.
...
"OH DEAR POPPETS!" ...Adam...

K£vin,

I think it might be fairer to say God was ignoring everyone else.

Coach,

Weeeeell.... I can just feel the love there -- some how I think you might be missing the irony in the situation! Follow my version of God or be dammed forever!

You know? That's not much of sales pitch. It’s the kind of thing that frightens small children.

How do we know your version is the correct one? What about the Buddists? The Muslims (there are about a billion people who would consider you delusional right there) The Protestants? The Hindus. The Roman Catholics? That guy on the corner of Burke and Elizabeth? The list of Gods just rolls on.

Actually we did a straw pole where I work and we kind of like Odin as a God (mind you, he was nearly pipped at the post by the flying Spaghetti monster). Go Odin!! Coming soon (by longship) to a sacking & pillaging near you! As a devout Odin'er I think you will be burning in hell for your non believer in my particular version of the world!

And by the way, Odin does not love Osama either.

If you follow the strict teaching of the bible, then God does indeed love Osama, as he loves all his creations. Someone made the point above that God might love them, but not their deeds. Realise this, that God will not forgive you your deeds unless you repent. This means being sorry, feeling remorse. I may be bold to say so, but I would suggest that a reasonably large proportion of the terrible people that have been listed on earlier posts, DO NOT feel sorry for what they had done. I dare say that Osama does not, and probably will not. Therefore, despite the fact that God loves him, he will not go to heaven. Doesnt mean that God does not love him though. You can love someone one, but not like them, or not condone what they do. You can love them, and hope that they will see the wrong of their ways, but you cant make them. Neither can God.

Well said, Country Gal. You've summed up admirably the position I held when I was a christian.

As the cliche goes, "hate the sin but love the sinner". I think it is probably analogous to parental love, with God being conceived as a father figure. If my children committed crimes, even murder, I would not stop loving them although I would be pained by their actions.

Although my belief in a Heavenly Father expired some time ago, the idea still has a certain attractiveness.

Rhys, as another former christian I've found that the idea of a parents love as a comparison to gods behaviour looks rather weak when you consider gods announced intention to hunt down and torture those who don't want an ongoing relationship (assuming numbats comments are a minority position amongst christains).

One part of the analogy looks good but on balance the kind of parent who hunts down kids who have rejected them and tortures them is not the type of parent I would aspire to be.

Parents keep on loving their offspring regardless of what the kids do, they may cut the ties because of ongoing harm, they may discipline those who are still under age (with an intent of correcting behaviour) but they never torture.

R0bert

The impression I'm getting from the godless brigade is that they are not questioning the Love or even Osama but the “GOD” part of the "God Loves Osama" posters.

Australia is in this declining and decadent state of moral confusion today because most have abandoned the idea of God' supremacy in our lives - replacing Him with "nothingness" or “self”.

How can a simple concept like love or forgiveness be rationally understood when God is taken out of the picture?

Look at Europe and how it is sliding downhill rapidly since they abandoned God and moved to total secularism – this has allowed Islam to march through their countries without possible resistance from the “Godless” Kafirs.

We are at war with an ideology that is embedded in a religion. The real enemy is not the terrorist but Islam itself.

Islam predates Iraq, Israel and even the USA. Islam has always been humanity’s enemy.

Islam – unlike communism – comes with a god figure at the helm. (Double trouble).

Judeo-Christianity is the foundation of modern civilization and its only hope of continuity. To dismiss that fact is to let go of our civilization.

Most of us will not be here to suffer the consequences of world dominated by Islamic retro-social values. It is our children and grandchildren who will blame us for sleeping at the wheel.

Godless people can only scratch their heads and wonder what the fuss is about. At best they try to combat Islam with Western style social law and dialogue – it simply won’t work.

Know your enemy – understand and preserve your culture before it’s too late.

Abandoning God is creating the ideal moral “vacuum” for Islam to fill with their version of a lesser god Allah.

God is a product of superstition and essentially god, the soul and spirituality are the ego. Jesus is an occult character in an occult book –the Bible. Jesus if he ever existed would be long dead. Nobody who believes in god bases that belief on truth and knowledge. Nobody who believes in god or Jesus (or both depending on a person’s cult) has prior proof of god and so all knowledge of god is made up, constructed, fantasy.

Jesus is essentially the ego based on personal preferences and the manipulation of occult literature, charlatans such as theologians and clergy and for most of Christian history .a great weight of politics.

Jesus only exists in the fantasy of the superstitious. No two people can believe in the same Jesus. Jesus is a conjured character as individual as the holder of the fantasy. If a
Person forgives Bin Laden then they will believe Jesus forgives Bin Laden. If they don’t forgive Bin Laden then they will not believe Jesus forgives Bin Laden. Jesus is a slave to what ever the ego prefers. Bin Laden is external to the issues of belief in Jesus because the concern of the believer is to convince the ego that it is immortal (saved). The self deification that is salvation is more focussed on the god believer passing the buck of the consequences of actions on to the deity or idol. Compared with the central issue of self deification (salvation) Bin Laden pales as remote importance to the spiritualist who is more concerned with their own ego’s needs.

On a political level it is increasingly apparent Christianity is trying to force its own form of Sharia Law onto the civilised world and it shares its values with Islamists. To those who are concerned we are being dragged back into a new Dark Age the forgiving of Bin Laden is an early sign of the unification of Islam and Christianity to take control of and persecute the world

coach wrote- "Australia is in this declining and decadent state of moral confusion today because most have abandoned the idea of God' supremacy in our lives - replacing Him with "nothingness" or “self”."

Dont agree. Firstly, I dont agree with the above description of Australia as true representation nor the direct connection between 'decadent' and 'from abandoning god'.

I think Australia, and the world, is waking up to the fact that the 'individual and god' relationship is a very personal and growing and evolving one, not one where a organization sets its self up in the middle between the person and god and then starts to dictate the who and how and what to god needs, likes and wants. then takes upon themselves to organize and instruct and control this...like in the past, it just does not work and too easy to corrupt...there is no confusion but clearer sight and feel of evil and good souls their nature and recognition

I think becoming 'decadent' is a personal choice and in itself not a crime, as long as you choose other decadent among yourself to party away...but corrupting or breaking a good soul into decadence and the pleasure derived from that act would be wrong...as it is in the nature of an evil soul to be decadent while it is naturally avoided by a good soul...

I think spiritually we all are far more advance than our generations before us. osama, well if god does exist, then spirit will survive the body and there will be judgment day, when god hears your reasons for your acts and determines if it a sin, if so then off to hell to burn it off which might take an eternity...I would like to hear what osama has to say, and if in fact the whole bush, blair etc organization will be judged together to get to the whole fact of the intentions behind the acts of damage and destruction for the unbalanced benefit...

Sam

I quite agree, RObert, there's a huge inconsistency between the doctrine of God's love and the doctrine of eternal punishment. And different people react to it in different ways, some by denying the doctrine of eternal punishment, some by inventing clever explanations to show that there isn't really any inconsistency at all, and still others by concluding that the whole edifice looks rather shaky.

I simply feel that the ugly bits of Christianity don't make the pretty bits any less pretty (just less believeable).

So to restate my original position in more narrowly defined terms: I have no problem with the idea that if Jesus was still around, he could love Osama but deplore his actions.

Coach, yes I do have a problem with Islam but I have to say that the terrorists do appear to be the more immediate threat.

West, oh yes, my Jesus is most certainly based on my personal preferences. That's why my Jesus is such a nice bloke :-) .

And Sam...it would be nice, wouldn't it, to believe in a god that actually judged people on their own merits, rather than punishing them for the actions of a supposed Adam and Eve.

Cheers, all!

Coach there is no greater s symbol of decadence than the Catholic and Pentecostal churches, the money lust of Tv evangilists , the self absortion that one decides that one requires an excorcist. There is nothing more symbolic of decadence than useless buildings dedicated to self obsession - the churches , mosques and temples. There is no greater a symbol of the degradation of morality than religion whos conduct of witch burning, inquistion, acts motivated by superstition , claims of god without prior proof makes religion anti-morals , infact evil.

Behaviour of the religious from Osama Bin Laden to Tony Abbot prove beyond doubt , mohommed and Jesus are bad influences.

A couple of thoughts:
Why is it that people react so negatively to the question "Does Jesus love Osama?"? Is it perhaps because that they *all* know that what Osama does is, in an absolute sense wrong? Is it perhaps because they know at a fundamental level that Osama (and Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot) deserve justice and punishment for their crimes? That when wrong is done there must be a payment made? Imagine if hitler/stalin/osama/pol pot and co. received no punishment at all for their crimes. If there were a supernatural being who didn't punish these people, we would be most irate and aware by our innate moral conscience (hmmm. Why do we all have one of those?) that this would be wrong. Yet by what standard do you judge? Compare Osama to us and he is pretty bad. But hey, wait a minute, what makes us qualified to judge? When we find out something of ours is broken, what is the first step we take? Maybe take out the manual, see if we can fix it. If that doesn't work, maybe take it to a technician. But ultimately, the inventor/creator is the best person to judge the status of the invention/creation. If there is an almighty God (and by logic, all that now exists requires an infinite first cause), then surely he is the one whose standard we must apply to this question. Assuming this God were good, if he allowed any imperfection to unite with him or any evil to go unpunished, he would no longer be good. Hence, the very goodness of this God requires that all who do anything imperfect or evil be seperated from Him forever. I don't know about you, but I'm not perfect. Are you? Good intentions are not enough. Hitler and Stalin both believed they were doing good. But what is it they say? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

People say that a good God wouldn't send people to hell. I have two responses. Firstly, God has provided a way, at great cost to himself, that no-one go there and that they may exist in perfect heaven with him forever. Jesus took on horrific punishment and death for the very people that reject Him. Yet he, as C.S. Lewis put it, is the perfect gentleman. If we insist our entire lives on having nothing to do with God, insist on not wanting God controlling our lives, he will grant our request. People only go to hell because they choose to go there. Secondly, if God is truly good, then there must be a hell. If he just said, "No, I know you've done wrong, but you did some good, so I'll let you off", would he still be good? If we knew a judge or a politician that let off someone of crimes repeatedly for any reason, we would say they aren't good. So how could a perfect God do so?

One final thought. "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". Will you? God has already paid the price. Will you enter?

Rhys wrote "...it would be nice, wouldn't it, to believe in a god that actually judged people on their own merits, rather than punishing them for the actions of a supposed Adam and Eve."

Ah...the original sin...well, going from the bible, genesis, when god created man, eve after adam, he intended that they remain forever as little loving children in that without the sense of wrong and right. (dont eat the fruit from that tree, otherwise be free in the garden of eden...)

Yep...apple, from tree of knowledge and with it came the above said knowledge which carried on to all of us, and all that is then left is our own individual choices we make to acts in each situation in our lives while being fully aware of wrong and right...yes, god also gave us the power of choice and with it responsibility for it and its effects on all other souls the act affects, bad and good.

So if our act is deemed a sin by god and gives justice by the weight attributed to that sin considering all the souls harmed by it (or on earth as civil wrong or criminal like in a court of law...I guess we try to mimic day of judgement) we are responsible for our own act...so I guess that first mess up originated from adam and eve which is carried on...

If not, then we will not know right from wrong like animals and plants and fish, and cannot earn sin...unfortunately that is not the case with us and we must carry our own burden on...

Sam

It we see a God who loves only those who love Him we have a fickle God indeed- a god like the death-loving moon god of mecca or allah. Christ Jesus taught "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you etc." Would the Great God do anything else other than what He has commanded us to do? Or do we suppose that God requires us to behave in one way towards the unrighteous while His own disposition towards them is the complete opposite? Some say that God does not send anyone to hell but they take themselves there - what an absurd unspeakable cop out. It is God Himself who has all power over every creature, there is no power but of God He is Judge of all. NO ONE can go to hell(that's the hell the churches preach about that doesn't exist)except God banishes them there. Christ did indeed die for sinners-ALL of them/us even the worst of them and God will work with them and have them acknowledge Him and Christ Jesus. "As in Adam ALL die as in Christ ALL be made alive" This statement is from God, it's in His Word the Bible. Regards, numbat

John a few things.

Firstly god is the ego so whatever you say about god you are talking about yourself. In essence to talk about what god thinks, wants, says is wearing ones self on ones sleeve.

No Christian who forgive Osama cares about Osama, it is a public relations exercise for the church to say “look at us aren’t we great!”. Osama is a parody and in the dungeons and dragons realm of Christianity a cartoon character imbued with magical powers. Churches or groups will announce that they are so wonderful they can forgive Osama in the meantime they continue to persecute women, atheists, homosexuals, divorcees, indigenous , everybody who does not belong to the Christian Cult. Forgiving Osama is essentially meaningless.

Who are we to Judge? We are the people who are killed and maimed by terrorists , we are the people who lose loved ones , have our lives affected for no reason other than Osama believes in God and God belief leads to violence and tyranny.

On a strictly biological level human society will not survive if it tolerates homicide. Human society has always rejected Homicide and has punished killers; it is part of natural selection. Yes Popes, prophets, presidents, kings and messiahs have got away with mass murder in the past but never when an opposing force of good was strong enough to stop it.

Besides not being a god believer I regard one murder equal to a million. There is no justification to take a life except in the pest control process of Justice which can only be undertaken by secular law.

Numbat Jesus was clear only Jews went to heaven.

You really need to study history.

The Greeks, the Romans (very much the founders of our civilisation), the Persian, the Chinese, the Indians, the Vikings etc all managed to do quite nicely with out the bible and the Christian "God".

Islam provide much input and thought into Western Europe during the middle ages (maths, astronomy, food, clothing) when our civilization was barely able to read.

I’d feel confident that during the crusades, Islam regarded Christianity as humanities enemy.

Oddly enough I agree with part of you post, "We are at war with an ideology that is embedded in a religion" -- it makes no difference if the religion is Islam or Christianity. It is ultimately conservatism that is the enemy. Whether it is conservative religions, political systems, whatever, that is where enemy is.

Dear West (a John->West communique)
Firstly, a finite, natural universe requires an infinite, supernatual creator. Hence, God is not the ego. It is unfortunate that you have reduced your concept of God to a god made in your image when He is so much greater than this. Doesn't this mean you are really just worshipping yourself, rather than someone slightly more qualified?
You say that "God belief leads to violence and tyranny". I am sorry, but this is just plainly historically wrong. Far more blood was shed in the name of atheistic ideologies in the 20th Century than all religions in all other centuries combined. Further, take the example of the early Christian church who transformed a society based so much on slavery, injustice, oppression and mass-murder that it made Hitler's Germany look pleasant. It was Christians that abolished slavery (twice), Christians who gave us hospitals, schools, universities, representative participatory government, science, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion etc. Incidentally, it was Christianity that elevated women from property to being men's equal. Indeed, the almost uniform testimony on the witnesses in antiquity (even hostile witnesses) is that early Christianity was characterised by its love and undeserved kindness. Conversely, unbelief in God, always invariably has lead historically to violence and tyranny.

----Continued from last post---- )sorry I'm verbose
West,
When you say Osama believes in God, he doesn't believe in YHWH Elohim Adonai but Allah, and the two are like chalk and cheese. I'm sure you would no more agree with me saying Communism, Fascism, Hedonism, Nihilism and agnosticism are all the same because they are non-theistic belief systems. Allah and the Christian God have less in common than Osama and Jesus.
You say that "On a strictly biological level human society will not survive if it tolerates homicide. Human society has always rejected Homicide and has punished killers; it is part of natural selection." Firstly, natural selection is about the strong murdering the weak, and not being interfered with doing so. Secondly, there are many societies who haven't punished killers. Indeed, as far as I know, bringing all killers to justice before a fair hearing I'm pretty sure is a Judaeo-Christian thing.
You mention "an opposing force of good ". What is good? I suppose if you can just define God, I suppose you can just define good. But if we're just rearranged pondscum all, what makes your defintion of good any more valid than Hitler's or Osama's? What makes Osama bad if there is no absolute authority? Good can only be defined by the one who is good, ie. God. Likewise, the "justification" you mention can only be defined by the one who is just, ie. God. We cannot be just, impartial judges as either victims and perpetrators of wrong. Secular law (incidentally only existing as common law was based on God's law) you argue can take life, but the one who gave all life can't?

Look forward to hear your reply,
John3.30

P.S. Numbat, Jesus was clear that whoever believed in Him goes to heaven

Dear Stephany.... in your list of 'evil people' who God could not possibly love, you neglected the man who authored 13 out of the 26 books of the New Testament. (PAUL)

I may have already posted it, but its worth repeating.

ACTS 8:1ff
[On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.]

Notice the words 'dragged off'.. this would be mothers, fathers, teenagers.. anyone who professed Christ.

But what happened ? This same man after an encounter with the risen Christ, could write:

1 Cor 13
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

WOAH.. did I read that correctly ? The man who one day is 'dragging people from their homes' (because they name Christ as Lord) is now speaking the most mellow and sweet words of compassion and love ?

So, when we are outraged by the thought that God could love Osama, lets realize, that His love is a different quality than ours. He is not limited by our weakness. God is also just, and so sin will go unpunished, but for those who have repented and come to Christ, their sins are taken by Him.

John perhaps you could explain the evidence that proves that "a finite, natural universe requires an infinite, supernatual creator". Where did you get that information?

Likewise Boaz , Gods love is different? God communicated to you person to person explaining what his love is? A Skeptic would accuse you of simply making it up. Im sure you will clear up as how you came accross such intimate information on what god thinks.

Still both posts appear as if I am correct that God is the ego as without prior proof of god it is the ego which claims such things of itself.

Yes, God as creator of heaven and earth and all of us, loves us all, and revealed his character and will to us on earth for a reason -- to save us from the wrath of God. There will be a judgment.

As God says through his prophet Amos repeatedly: "..prepare to meet your God." So, the question is, is Osama prepared to meet God's wrath?" He's got to do something with all those sins, e.g. the three thousand souls he shut off from earthly life, for which he will earn God's wrath.

And a God who can create universes -- galaxies, and all that stuff out there that is too far for astronomers to see yet -- can seek justice in ways beyond human imagining.

Osama should be afraid, very, very afraid.

He has one chance, repent in his heart for all those lives he so casually laughed out of existence, and accept Jesus Christ as his Lord, then follow his ways (outlined in the Sermon on the Mount). No more violence, that is.

Jesus speaks of hell a lot in the Bible, his word. He describes it. It isn't pretty, and furthermore, its not a place where one can leave, if one wants, and go to a pleasant place with air conditioning, and where one isnt' crowded, maimed, by foul creatures (fallen angels, filthy and corrupt in mind, with malice towards humans).

Luckily, Jesus does love the world, and he offers a way out of that one way,irreversible exit towards judgment, which no human can stand. Change (archaic: repent). Trans. for Osama -- change your mind and black heart. God hates black hearts.