Pericles - if I may intrude here - as an outsider to the Abrahamic debate - you fail to appreciate the historical aggressive nature of Islam.

Unless you humble yourself and start reading their texts you will always play the arbitrator game blindfolded.

As Christians (and Jews) we are mentioned by name in their Qur'an and all other Islamic holy books. Islam has made it their business to eliminate us with their god Allah’s blessings naturally.

Islam is not your common god-worship incense-burning gong-sounding humming and chanting religion … it is a forceful political movement with the sole purpose to subdue the free world to their delusional ideologies.

Terror is but one of their tools to attain that goal. Jihad is the divine duty of every good Muslim.

So we are not attacking Islam for sport, but unveiling its true colours to the indifferent, ignorant Australian majority

Thanks for your contribution GZTan.

>>Firstly, the concept of peace (as Islam pretends to espouse) is not even a virtue. It is merely a desirable outcome with a selfish undertone<<

I'd like to point out that I was talking about tolerance, not "peace". Nevertheless, your comment is patent nonsense. Of course peace is a virtue, no matter who espouses it.

>>But even so, tolerance in itself needs not be a desirable quality<<

This may be your opinion, but it is not mine.

I am aware that the Bible is itself equivocal on this point. Jesus told people that "to him that strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also", which is pretty tolerant. But he also said "He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me... But woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born", which goes to the opposite extreme.

So I guess Christians can take their pick - or "make it up as they go along", as Boaz likes to say.

But my point was a little more specific. Hatred and intolerance has a habit of begetting hatred and intolerance. That has nothing to do with being a "desirable quality", simply a fact of human nature.

coach protests

>>... we are not attacking Islam for sport but unveiling its true colours<<

It never occurred to me that it might be sport, but there is no way that what you are doing will unveil anything but your own blind prejudices.

It also tells me that any chance of tolerance from coach and his bunch of co-haters is out of the question.

The question remains. What are you going to do, guys, when you achieve your aim of total, outright religious war? I can only assume that this is your divinely-inspired objective, because you are certainly going in the right direction to achieve it. Keep up with the hate-speak, and you will create more and fanatics with a reason to hate you in return.

Pericles difficulty is that he is committed to the culticultural/new age ethos that all cultures & religions are of equal value.

He sincerely believes that in defending Islam in this thread - he is defending the ideals of objectivity & tolerance .

However multicultural has sold him a pup - there are creeds out there which have some very dark currents and among them is Islam.

This does not mean that you should mistreat individual Moslems.
And it doesn’t mean that any criticism of Islam is a criticism of individual Moslem(s).

Rather it says that at its foundations, traditional Islam has precepts that are very alien/incompatible to modern western society .

One of Bin Laden's core arguments against moderate Moslems was/is that they are not applying all of Islam’s precepts, they are picking and choosing according to the time/fashion & he ( & others) sought to push them back into line.And if you look at the history of modern Iran ( well illustrated in "Reading Lolita in Tehran" written by an Iranian academic) you'll see how quickly & easily, moderates morphed into fundamenatlists -when it suited them.

Historically there has been a strong tendency for Islam to be moderate & accommodating during the initial stages Of entry to a country but to become more rigid/ authoritarian when it gains a dominant position . A point that makes many non-Muslims question the veracity of Muslims who claim to be moderates.

If Perciles cared to venture to such places as Southern Sudan
He’d find this traditional Islam - and its not a new or an isolated instance - what was Muammar al-Gaddafi’s initial comments re southern Sudan? -This had been going on for hundreds of years, what’s the fuss.

Or Pericles may like to try something closer too home like the Christian enclaves in Indonesia or Pakistan & see how they are faring .

Or investigate what happens when someone who converts from Islam to Christianity in Morocco or Saudi Arabia.

Pericles
I’m interested in getting past this “Boaz_does_hate_posts” to something deeper about your own position.

As I’ve reminded you a few times, this thread is about Muslim academics speaking up and their apparent inability to indulge in self criticism. I’ve enunciated various aspects of Islam which are eminently worthy of criticism and you describe them as decontextualized ‘soundbites’ and ‘rabble rousing’.

If an atheist criticized Christians for ‘narrow minded exclusionist bigotry’ and used John 3:16 as their justification.. would you call that an “isolated, decontextualized sound bite, , designed to incite hatred against Christians”. If you did, I would have to disagree. (that it is out of context) Because John 3:16 is as follows:

“For God so loved the world that He sent his only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life”

Now..this is a definitive statement of Christianity.. absolutely core and central. It IS exclusionary “Whoever believes” i.e...those outside of Christ WILL perish. It is ‘bigoted’ and ‘narrow minded’ if you wish to take it that way.....but the point is, we, as Christians cannot and will not retreat from its meaning.....because it is central. We can bear the criticism and take it. No sugar coating.

If I was railing against seemingly obscure verses or sentences from Mien Kampf and my diatribes were against National Socialism, would you be calling me a hate inspiring rabble rouser against well meaning and misrepresented Nazi’s? -I would like to know your answer and your reasons for it.<-IMPORTANT.

Both National Socialism and Islam aim for a STATE, and if I may ‘graze’ among the Date Palms of Khaibar again for a moment, the outcome of that horrendous battle, besides the slow torture and decapitation of a Jewish Chief and the theft and in my view rape of his 17 yr old wife by a 60 yr old Mohammad, was that ALL PROPERTY was taken for the Islamic state(including many women and children as slaves), and the remaining people were taxed at 50% of their gross income. -This set the pattern for the Jizya Tax on Christians and Jews.

Pericles,

>>… what you are doing will unveil anything but your own blind prejudices.<<

Maybe that is the impression you and some others may deduce from watching this from “the indifferent, ignorant Australian majority” stand. But one thing is comforting to (us) is that the world post 9/11 has had a chance to take the scales out of their eyes and understand – perhaps the first time – the true motivation behind the Islamic display of hatred against the west.

>>It also tells me that any chance of tolerance from coach and his bunch of co-haters is out of the question.<<

You seem to be fixated on the word “tolerance”. It was explained to you that it has a very lose meaning depending on how you want to view it. E.g. if you know something is wrong and you speak up about it, you are by definition intolerant to that something. The key word here is “wrong”.

As Christians we know for fact that Islam is wrong and we speak up about it. If that makes us intolerant – so be it. But we can’t stay quiet and let Muslims “perish” in their delusions. Also we can’t let “them” establish their Islamic State by stealth without at least warning the indifferent, ignorant Australian majority.

Now how does that make us “haters”?

>>… when you achieve your aim of total, outright religious war? I can only assume that this is your divinely-inspired objective…<<

Definitely not our nor God’s aim – the Islamic war has been raging for the last 14 centuries since the conception of Islam. Non-war times - "Peace" – are just interludes.

The kingdom of God is NOT of an earthly nature. It is a Spiritual phenomenon. But it seems that Allah the god of Islam has different views.

Truth reveals ignorance and explains prejudice – and that can be confronting to some. If they chose to hate us “more” that is their way of dealing with truth. Our hope and prayer is that people would at least research our claims and perhaps discover true life in the process.

Pericles,

I'm almost embarrassed to add to the many posts addressed to you, that show how 'intolerant' we are. Hope this is the last one.

You are confusing tolerance with love. Turning the other cheek must be seen in the context of love. Love leads to tolerance, but the converse may not be true. It is possible for a tolerance to be completely void of love, mechanical and self-serving.

Example: Knowing that matters could be far worse, it is easy to tolerate your neighbour tossing his rubbish over the fence, when he's more than six feet tall and have connection with the local gang. So be satisfied with a false peace of mind.

My point is- tolerance itself is neutral. It is the subject of tolerance that determines whether it is right or wrong. There is hardly such thing as being tolerant for the sake of tolerance.

Also, Jesus was merely expressing a tragedy of Judah (who was hell bound). It is clear to me that was not about hatred, not an incitement to attack Judah. I haven't a clue how you can relate that to intolerance, other than thinking u don't understand the subject matter.

I mentioned peace only as a precursor, because just like tolerance, peace is often mis-used.

Peace is a noun, a state of mind, an outcome. It is least of all an act of virtue.

Peace can be the outcome of a complete surrender to your foe.
A peace deal can be reached to evenly divide a corrupt spoil.
A peace of mind may be- knowing things could be worse with your 6-feet tall neighbour.

Are these virtues?

If you understand some things are human nature, then you must also acccept there are all sorts in the world, including those who hate the West for what it stands for, irregardless. Tolerance or the lack of it, may not even be an issue.