James, do you recall the section in the last couple of pages of The Myth of Male Power where Farrell talks about adolescent feminism vs adult feminism. It seems that you and others are so focussed on the adolescent feminists that you refuse to acknowledge the posibility of adult ones (for those who've not read it the adolescent ones are into choice without responsibility, blame without understanding etc and the adult ones are calling for women to take on adult responsibilities as well as rights).

How about assuming that those who try and have a discussion with you are adult (or adult enough to be willing to listen) and see if that makes a difference. The adolescent ones will have a dummy spit and call you names when you make a case for something you don't like - they are rather obvious.

Ena, and Romary seem to be willing to discuss issues and listen. Time for some dialog.

R0bert

Gee, teenage feminism must be about the longest teenage period in history.

There are a few adult feminists who have exposed the myths surrounding DV, the glass ceiling, the wage gap myth etc.

But, by and large they are a very small minority.

Fortunately some of the matriarchs of the feminist movement have reconsidered their political position and others are now pushing up daisies.

"unreasonable to expect more than 50% of the human race to stay meekly in their "supportive" roles, earning less, owning less and deciding less, and even more unreasonable to argue that it is justified - particularly if you are one of the half of the human race not constrained by biology." ena

My paternal grandmother was anything but meek. She ruled! so don't give me that crap about meek women.

Research by Dr Sotirios Sarantakos showed that most homes were either Matriarchal or the power was shared.

Today I understand that wives control about 80% of the household budget and decide which house to buy, what car to drive. I wonder if that is deciding less?

I remember lessons from my older male relatives including my grandfather about not saying things which would be deemed to upset women and to do what they said.

I had permission to hit other boys if they hit me, but under no circumstances was it acceptable to hit a girl regardless, no matter what she did to you.

Even during WW1 the group who allegedly had all the power could be intimidated by the women of the white feather brigade into joining the armed services.

Fighting on the western front for men was more pleasant than staying safely at home. Gee the men had a lot of power didn't they?

Men have not lost any power due to the advent of feminism. "Men" never had any power. Prior to feminism there never was a social movement of masculinist empowerment. With out exception, men have always worked and fought for their lovers, their wives, their family, their community, their country.
A man will work in the most God awful environments, due most physically abusive labour, for hours, days, years on end. He will willingly give his life so that his wife will have nothing but the best he can afford.
Very damn few women are ever willing to endure such a menial existence for their lover or husband, or family. Never mind community or country. Todays woman of equal rights and feminine power is out the door and on to the next income earner before the ink is dry on the separation agreement. And that woman can be earning $100,000 dollars a year. It makes no difference.
There is no expectation that women will stay meekly in their supportive role. They haven't got a supportive role. If they had the realities of marriage and divorce would reflect it.
As for "earning less, owning less and deciding less, and even more unreasonable to argue that it is justified." It is justified in that men spend 20-30 years on their careers. Women spend the grand total of 5 to 10 years on their careers. "Owning less" Women "own" everything their man had or purchases in his life with them. What does a man walk out with? And please enough about what you get to decide. I haven't made an independent decision in I don't know how long. I don't even get to decide when to go to the bathroom. Nature does.
This is the 21st century. If women aren't going to take responsibility for their actions, the backlash will be that the responsibility will be taken from them. That is the essential bit about freedoms. You only have them for as long as you take responsibility for them. Take it from me, one of those all powerful men you aspire to be.

Ironically, feminism is opening a lot of men's eyes to how we can assert real power and control over our own lives.

The loss or compromising of personal power proceeds from attachment to various levers of social and emotional control... money, material, status, sex, procreation, children, institutions, religion, ideology, greed, love, hate, desire, envy, etc. Its an extremely difficult thing to detach the myriad means by which we disempower/oppress OURSELVES, tho it is possible to travel a subjective path of least resistence.

Feminism has very much liberated men from the social/moral/ethical obligation to to do what we've always done. We've always enjoyed a biological freedom. Now there is also a social freedom. With a bunch of technology on the horizon giving us real reproductive choices.

Men arent up against the same social stigma on this front.

Females seem to have a strong tendency to define themselves first and foremost on the basis of their reproductive biology and gender. If a man speaks ill of one woman, then most women seem to take offense and seek to correct one's thinking. Men, when confronted with same, dont seem to bother too much about it.

Modern day tendency of some men to get their backs up and take this stuff personally strikes me as an example of the feminisation of men... getting in touch with 'feminine side.' Shows how effective feminism has become as a way to influence (control?) men. Or maybe, pushing a mans emotional buttons has always been an effective control mechanism in the hands of woman and feminism is hardly likely to relinquish a potent proven technique.

A lot of guys are staying outta the trenches. There's much data to this effect out there. Prolly get worse too.

Majority of men are attached tho, but seemingly, over time develop an emotional detachment (a proxy), prolly driving married womens deep dissatisfaction, hence fact that 60-80% of divorce is initiated by women. Maybe also driving ongoing resentment as evidenced by some pretty ordinary behaviour towards their exes in divorce.

Soldier on... the Gender Snore and the Battle of the Exes.

peace.

I dont know guys...the theme is getting repetitive, which is women writing about 'feminism' and how now its a 'new feminism' without stating exactly in what acts is it 'new'... besides the fact that most of the women are still working as groups, and our worry is what now...

Not one woman has given a factual disclosure of their organized acts done in the 'name of feminism' but statistics abound of their effects from family court and child support agency corrupted to act in their benefit, and just general social knowledge of damage to good fathers and children by women eg stark difference in suicide rates in these groups...that now affected more people than not...

Men have been showing the lies and deceit of some of their words, and now we should develop on... some effort on what is actually going on in the womens mind and the hidden communication between each other( you will soon note that their communication is quite different to ours)... they most certainly wont tell you and if they do its probably to deceive but a bit of sherlock holmes and a lot of sharp observation and apply with street smart excellence... its in our nature to do this, like we would hunting in the jungle... before we know it we have more factual information gathering and then we move on to the next level which we need to...eg women are 'master image merchants' while we are toddlers at it...we can never compete unless we excel at the same game applying the same principles which is probably might be 'succeed over the sisterhood for the brotherhood'... which to us will be protect, defend and promote good fathers and good children, and of course mother earth...

Sam

When it comes to understanding a person, woman are like men on one incontravertible front...

...watch a person's actions.

Its very simple. Men and women stuff all sorts of things up in relationships because we proceed on the basis of hot air. Its natural l guess, to live in hope and trust people.

Its only a matter of time before one wakes up and realises talk is cheap. It becomes impossible to ignore the weighty evidence of TRUTH, in all its unvarnished and over-exposed repetition.

Technology (birth control) and feminism pushed out the time horizons for mating. Its easy to ignore the truth when hormones are raging. With men and women waiting until their 30s to commit, its much easier, compelling in fact, to think with the big head. Also you learn to trust your gut, because it NEVER lies.

Nnother, possibly unintended, benefit for the bicycles.

The biggest sellouts of feminism were women. They didnt like the warts and all nature of equality. Didnt want to give up many of the gender-centric priviledges that were a human history in the making, in fact systematically solidifiying that side of things.

They're very pragmatic and arent about to buy a bunch of words. Jobs, money and reproductive power (currently practically absolute) are all good, but doing the nasty, ugly side of a man's world is not ever gonna happen. Afterall, that's mens work. Ya know how it goes, men are responsible for all the crappy crappyness (mans world), so we gotta shoulder the responsibility for the mess and shouldnt expect any help from our sisters in redressing the millenial legacy of stuff we didnt do.

Gee thanx, for the help and here's to a better existence.

You see, equality is a VERY HARD ROAD to TRAVEL. Its the path least travelled and there's a reason for it... you cant blame anyone, you gotta shoulder the responsibilities, equally. Sans the word games, routines or campaigns.

l dont think you realise how easy it is to actually do.

But YOU gotta step up. If you dare.