billie

I was referring to Franzy's hypothetical. To become a partner or senior manager in any firm you have to put in the hard yards. It is not a case of get the job then relax either. That doesn't leave much time or opportunity for family or a social life and if you were expecting this to change with women in senior positions you would be sadly mistaken.

Maybe the public service and universities are less demanding of their senior staff.

The professions do offer a lot of scope for flextime, reduced hours and contract work.

Chris C - Ah, but everyone who criticises you always assumes they know best and that they would never have behaved as 'selfishly' as you ;) I conceived despite using a supposedly 100% effective contraceptive. And I'm branded irresponsible by people who'd rather judge than place themselves in my position. People criticise women for 'using abortion as a form of birth control' - I argue that if women DO use it as such a thing (as if it was so easy to organise!) then it is due to a lack of proper sex education in this country rather than a lack of 'morals' on behalf of the woman.

billie - Yes. It's ironic how many anti-abortionists are also anti single mothers because 'they're nothing but bloody dole bludgers'.

iain hall - "Abortion is 'sometimes' justifiable." In just what circumstances? Not, according to you, if it threatens the 'lifestyle' of the woman. In your mind, the ability of a woman to determine her own existence and responsibilities becomes a lifestyle choice. How selfish of her to want to priorities her own ambitions over her biological ability.

Stewart Glass - Foetuses do of course develop into humans like you or I - but as a cluster of cells, the comparison is utterly ridiculous.

Blackstone - I'm happy you considered it a privilige. I considered pregnancy a horrendous invasion of my body both physically and emotionally. I found out I was pregnant at 6 weeks and was forced to wait until 8 weeks because it was considered medically more reliable. You clearly don't know that the general stress of abortion is so high that it could never be utilised as a form of 'birth control'.

Sam said - "practically it only takes a woman to present herself for one.."...Have you had one? As Franzy says, it's not like popping down to the shops for a loaf of bread. Utilise some facts in your arguments before speaking about things of which you clearly have no knowledge.

(cont below)

Franzy - Don't you know we all just get horrendously drunk afterwards and laugh about it?

Iain Hall - While I sympathise, limiting women's ability to govern their reproductive rights won't make it any easier for you and your wife. You shouldn't condemn them because you feel they are contemptuous of an experience you would fight tooth and nail for.

Cornflower - Similarly, individuals must allow others to deal with their decisions and not foist their own unwanted criticism on them.

Kenny - You basically just said everything I believe.

billie - Refer to below comment re men in the pro-life camp.

Cornflower - "Maybe the public service and universities are less demanding of their senior staff." Is this insider knowledge of billie, or are you just assuming her pro-choice 'bleeding heart lefty' stance places her squarely in these fields?

Thanks again peeps. Someone referred earlier to the use of the morning after pill. The MAP can only be taken up to 72 hours after sex, which makes it pretty much useless for most women in accidental situations. Further, It occurred to me today that the prevalence of male voices in the pro-life camp might be because the masculine biological urge to spread their seed is unconciously offended by the idea that a woman might willingly rid their body of that seed. I truly can't conceive of any other reason why men would get their hackles up so vehemently about this issue, especially as they will never understand the physical and emotional reality of pregnancy - or will feel the intense pressure to change their lives so totally to accomodate said child.

I have great difficulty with the concept that women should somehow 'like it and lump it' when it comes to pregnancy. Women have been practising abortion for years, often dangerously. It. is. never. going. to. go. away. There's a despicable attitude that women who don't want children are somehow acting selfishly - as if they're primary function is to breed and everything else is merely just killing time. I blow raspberries in that direction.

Peace out.

Met a woman in hospital forced to have a baby against her will.
Raped by hubby coz she tried to leave him.
Wanted an abortion when she discovered she was pregnant,hubby locked her in a room for a month with only water.
Tried to kill herself so the law gave hubby legal control over her body to keep the pregnacy going.
She was tied in her bed.
The baby was born with all the disabilities the doctors predicted,due to the beatings,starvation and suicide attempt.
Hubby raped her 3 hours after the birth,in our 4 bed shared ward,and every chance he could after that.
Hubby adopted the baby out at 6 weeks.
She succeeded in killing herself 3 months later when she discovered she was pregnant again.
2 lives destroyed but Hallelujah peoples !
Hubby got his say and his way and no nasty abortion happened.
This was in 1997.

Audrey and Billie,

I am just trying to wrap my head around your perspective. But neither of you have actually answered my question.

"if you knew the fetus was living would you still support abortion?"

Audrey - you are still a cluster of cells as am I
Billie - I know that fetus's can die. so can little babies (think cot deaths)

what I really want to know though is:

"if you knew the fetus was a living thing would you still support abortion?"

A short reply is due... particularly in response to Franzy and audrey apple. Firstly, in general your presumptions are wrong. To put things into perspective, I am a doctor. I have done hundreds of 1st trimester abortions. My perspective was solely for the womans interest in that situation and little for any thing else, as how I was trained and instructed. I have referred thousands of women for abortions as well. I have seen the real side of this industry and know exactly what goes on...I do not wish to go into it but woman who have had the procedure know what I mean and ask if some of you will state the bare facts or it, but now I will not refer a woman for an abortion or perform one again except say that the womans interests is not the only overriding concern in this situation, and refer the woman to another doctor and I would like to see doctors trained with a more balanced attitude in this area...

My point still holds, as a man I am responsible for my sperm, and if any woman does not like that...well...does not change anything. If I can act to prevent a problem, then that is a higher cause to strive to achieve...

But, now my view is rather extreme...In nature killing ones young only because it is 'inconvenient' is an abomination. Circumstances exist where an abortion is the most humane of act, and extreme examples eg by bugs does not help particularly when I have never heard of such a reporting in media or law, and tying a woman through pregnancy by court order?!!...this situation needs level headed approach and everything else be discarded...for a balanced solution must be found...90,000 abortions a year just in Australia is crazy

Sam