Rebekka, that's exactly the point that you keep reinforcing. Thanks very much.

Its your choice. Invent as many self serving head games as gets you thru the day. And leave us menfolk out of it. Because, the point l make to you is simply, its your body, its your choice and most of us men dont give a rats arse wot you do with it. Or for that matter what other men do with theirs. People can drink draino if they like. Sure we'll clean up the mess, but most dont care.

Just playing your silly head games for the sake of sport... its fun exposing blatant hypocracies and double standards. Accidental humor is priceless. lm starting to think that internet forums are just a fairly convincing facade for sniggering, judgemental egocentricity.

Of course, contrary to your assertions of male reproductive powerlessness, we can do what we've done for eons, something that trumps everything all of the time, without exception, which is to vote with our feet. The only thing which anyone truelly recognises. And, like you say, there's nothing you can do about it. Like you say, its our reproductive destiny and we can too can choose to involve you or not, at our discretion, alone. See, this crap works both ways.

You set the tone. You are driving the wedge. Congratulations and well done champ.

This issue, above all else puts lie to those who have any pretentions to mutual responsibility and equality.

So, there ya have it, my little pointless contribution to the cheap entertainment that is forum based 'discussion.'

Good luck, and dont forget to take the pills. duh.

"Of course, contrary to your assertions of male reproductive powerlessness, we can do what we've done for eons, something that trumps everything all of the time, without exception, which is to vote with our feet. The only thing which anyone truelly recognises. And, like you say, there's nothing you can do about it. Like you say, its our reproductive destiny and we can too can choose to involve you or not, at our discretion, alone. See, this crap works both ways."

So....by voting with your feet you're saying that you're going to stop sleeping with women? Hah! Good luck recruiting men to that club buster.

You do realise, trade215, that stringing lots of words together and making grammatically correct sentences doesn't actually ensure that said sentences will make any kind of sense whatsoever. Further, I rather wonder why, considering you think talking about abortion is a useless waste of time because you don't care what anyone else does, you bother to involve yourself in a discussion about it.

As for your earlier comment Iain - I was using implanon. Supposedly 100% pregnancy proof. I had it out the day after I had sex and, according to the doctors, conceived 'immaculately' sometime during the following seven days while my boyfriend was out of town. I've probably gone and knocked off the next massiah. Crumbs. THAT'S not going to go down well on Judgement Day...

Franzy - i may have missed your point but you have missed mine and proceeded to paint a mural.

Here's mine in black and white without satire:
- The basic purpose of sex is to reproduce.
- I assume that Audrey made a choice to have sex with a man. She became pregnant. She didn't want the baby and was able to terminate it therefore i think she is lucky that such a procedure was available to her.
- The more ways and means we have of easily preventing or cancelling pregnancies, the more the act of sex may become detached from it's basic pupose and the more it can be indulged in, worry-free, as an act of pleasure alone. It is possible that the reason sex is so pleasurable is because of this link to procreation.

Now here's a few more to respond to your post:
- I'm not anti-abortion, i support the responsible and informed choices of pregnant women with regards to their bodies, taking into account the father (if he is man enough to be around) and the future life of the fetus, and also the impact on their family and society and even the whole race.
- Science, or more accurately human beings, are working towards a lot of things, some are beneficial to humanity, some are destructive. I don't know if our science is working towards removing sex from reproduction but it is certainly making it a possibility.

I'm furthering the debate by moving it along, not a just adding a tired pro-choice or pro-life response on the merry-go-round argument of is it human or just cells.
I see the should/shouldn't debate about abortion as basically over as society is clearly moving in the pro-choice direction. i think discussion should turn more to the ethical use of abortion because the more accessible and hassle-free it becomes, the more it can and will be used to allow total irresponsibility when it comes to sex and the method of our procreation.

Gee, audrey, ya think?

Voting with ya feet means you're not the only one who can walk away from a pregnant body. 'medical procedure' or no. whether he's pointlessly for or against abortion. his reproductive freedom is in his biology. other options, not of his undertaking, merely enhance that freedom. thats the stripped down reality. all this crap works both ways.

make of it what you will.

You do realise, apple, that stringing lots of assumptions together and making self servingly correct justifications doesn't actually ensure that said justifications will make any kind of sense whatsoever. Further, I rather wonder why, you wonder about more pointless stuff, like my motivation.

you do realise that jumping to conclusions is a good way to keep arguing with yourself.

wading thru contradictory self serving justifications that bear no logic upon a topic is certainly a waste of time. all that personal rationale gets in the way... you know, that stuff about different behavioural standards being acceptable, or not, due ultimately to subjective and often vascilating feelings driven by self interest.

Thats all a crock and you know it is. Its a good tactic tho. Wasting time, as you know, is a very useful device for avoiding the truth, which must be avoided at all costs. It would only lead to compromise, and in something as fundamentally central to the essence of power between the sexes (reproduction --> survival), we cant have that.

Basically, think the whole angle about how men get the short end of your mercy stick in the game of life, being pushed in various quarters, is a rhetorical device. It teases out stuff thats usually very guarded. Its a way to get folks to show their hand. Political reconnaissance. Useful to know where people really stand. Its a great time saver.

as for talking about something on a net forum... who needs a reason for such egocentric indulgence. ah well, if ya gonna demand reasons the qualification may as well be specious. well done. good time wasting.

this is fun.

I'm quoting from memory, but Helen Garner said something about the fact that you will never change a woman's adamantine refusal to give birth to a child that she cannot adequately parent.
I believe a foetus is human, therefore I believe there are worse fates for it than to never be born, such as to be born to a reluctant, resentful, desperate parent - who will neglect or abuse it and don't talk to me about adoption - the trauma of adoption is legendary. My mother -a counsellor - said she spent literally thousands of hours counselling women who had given up babies for adoption and to people who had been adopted - their tears filled oceans. She did not spend a single hour counselling those who had had abortions - it was mentioned, but in passing, it was simply not traumatic. The tragedy is the unwanted pregnancy - not the solution.
In Freakenomics the authors discovered that 18 years after Roe v Wade made abortion legal in the US, the rate of crime fell. At first they thought this was just a co-incidence, then they investigated states that had legal abortion prior to Roe v Wade. Guess what, precisely the same result - a fall in crime exactly 18 years later. It ain't giving birth to a child that matters, its the 20 odd years you spend afterwards bringing it up, and if you can't do that properly, better - by far - not to have it at all.

Babattoir seems so apt. But should we not have all-female babattoir staff? Otherwise we surely leave ourselves open to accusations of patriarchal oppression. No?

Are babottoirs the only places in this country that have proper contracts for women to sign that can be actually enforced? I don’t see too many of them being sued after she changes her mind – or is this the only case where her choice stream can be forcefully terminated?

And what of adoption? More traumatic for the mother than abortion? The attitude of “if I can’t have you, you must die” seems psychopathic in any other language, except of course, in that of abortion.