The greatest strategic folly is not to destroy one's IRRECONCILABLE and IMPLACABLE foe, such as Hezbollah, at his weakest point. UN Resolution 1701 will only render a respite to this unappeased enemy of Israel and the US that will make it stronger in the near future, and hence more difficult to defeat.

Israel and the US will pay a heavy price for this illusionary "defeat" of Hezbollah, as the '15,000-strong UNIFIL force' will not avert the great danger that lies ahead from a more potent and brazen Hezbollah.

SEE:'Delegitimize States That Sponsor Terror' http://www.con.observationdeck.org

This guy is a spammer. Is there any way to report them?

BOAZ AGREES WITH PROPHET MOHAMMED ?

Yep.. this is one of the rare occasions where I agree that his methods work. But thats the extent of my agreement. "His methods...do work" and they work in a human fashion and that is what I am pointing to.

What were his methods ?

3 smaller Jewish tribes and 2 larger Arab tribes inhabited Medina when Mohammed moved there from Mecca.

Banu Qaniyqa (mohammed exiled them)
Banu Qurayza (mohammed slaughtered the males and enslaved the females)
Banu Nadir (Mohammed exiled them.)

Finally there were the Jews of Khaiber, where he killed all the males and again enslaved the women and children.

Basically he came up with FINAL SOLUTIONS, which endure to this day.
Now.. I know FS are a couple of dirty words, but they are emminently practical.

Tribal societies simply do not dance to the tune set by the U.N.

We in the west can woffle and mumble till the cows come home, and bleat and whine about resolution this and international law that, but it doesn't mean squat to tribal societies just as we are seeing in Iraq.

So... the sooner the Israelis (following the example of Islams prophet) come up with an exile or extuinguishment solution the sooner there actually will be an enduring peace. But a peace only maintained by brute force and power.

Dead right, Themistocles. I said the same thing some time ago when the conflict was still in progress. The UN will have to take responsiblity for all that happens in the future.

Hezbollah should have been wiped out. Mad dogs cannot be tamed and allowed to live.

Hezbollah is now seen as a Middle Eastern lodestone. Really. Even before the current hostilities Hezbollah had many people in that part of the world in its fan club. Hezbollah is yet to open a recruiting office in downtown Tel Aviv so its success might be hard to gauge. Converts in Lebanon might be considered a fait accompli so they must be discounted. So complex are the machinations of ME politics it is hard to nominate winners and losers.

Anyone got a coin?

I think what the situation in Lebanon & Iraq demonstrates is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for western style nations to wage winnable wars.

In any situation they engage in, western combatants are always weighed down by heaps of moralistic, politically correct baggage .While behinds the lines they are undermined by negative journalists ,“academics” , film makers etc who seek to make a name for themselves or a quick buck by nit-picking & criticising at every opportunity.

Against this you have groups like Hezbullah who control all internal media/discussion, control education -& do hot hesitate to murder digressers.

Even if you defeat such groups militarily -their public(s) will never be allowed to believe it.

HORUS.....

exactly. Hence my post mate.

The greatest weapon our enemies have is the UN and HUMAN RIGHTS.

...and our enemies know it.

The Israelies can choose to have a long, painful drawn out war which will be hamstrung by international sensitivities, and then not win.

Or..

They can use winning tactics with zero regard for the niceties of the UN and its quaint resolutions.

Give Hezbollah an ultimatum.

1/ Stop your powergrab in Lebanon
2/ Return the Israeli captives
3/ No more rockets into disputed territory.
OR

100% exile of all Shia Muslims from lebanon to Syria with a buffer zone.
If that fails to stop rockets, then all the males must be hunted down and summarily executed.

Its that simple.

An ultimatum gives the non Hezbollah Shia's a chance to either kill them or out them. If they don't take that chance, they are complicit.
Game Over.

The so called prophet Mohammed used this very reasoning against the Jews of Khaibar and Banu Qurayza "Will you accept the judgement of one of your own" ? "yes" they said.. but the Muslim version of history does not tell us the actual background of this man who gave judgement, and he pronounced "Execute the males, enslave the females"
Would they have chosen him to judge them if they thought he would judge thus ?
As did Mohammed, so the Jews are able to do, and their battle cry should be "MUSLIMS...REMEMBER KHAIBAR!"

Gary Gambill ignores two of the prime winners and losers with his attempt at indepth justification and sanitation of Israel's latest disgrace.
The biggest loser was democratisation of the Mid East. The democratic Western world failled to stand on the side of a fledgling democracy...Lebanon. I don't think we'll make the same mistake in Palestine in future.

Which also makes the biggest longterm winners the Palestinians. Israel will be forced to desist its occupation and suppression of the Palestinians and will be forced to withdraw to the pre '67 borders. World reslove will harden on that aspect as Israel continues to demand recognised Palestinian lands.

Proof: Who ever would have thought Tony Blair would go to the mid east on a peace mission. Very recent and not widely reported. He went not to Palestine (Of the Palestinians) Lebanon, Syria or Iran but but to Olmet in Israel. I don't think Israel's withdrawal (Again) from Gaza was unrelated to that visit.

I'd have thought given Gary's biographical notes, he'd have recognised those consequences and written about them firstly for they are the most significant changes.

His article smacks of the same type of thinking as contained in Ted Lapkin's 'Lessons from Lebanon'.

keith

Just a few things wrong with your argument. Israel attacked Hezbollah, not Lebanon. Hezbollah had established itself as a quasi government in the south of the country. The Christian areas in Beirut were untouched. Despite press claims giving the impression that the whole country was in ruins Beirut airport was up and running within days of the cease fire.

It is Hezbollah which is the enemy of democracy. Until its Iranian supported army is put under control there is no possibility of democracy in Lebanon.

Realise the position of women in middle eastern Islamic society, the private armies, and the glorification of suicide murderers and you see the problems in the region. As long as Israel and the US and Europe are blamed for the short comings of the states in the area the true problems will never be addressed and the countries will remain disfunctional.

This site is a great attempt at giving a voice to a wide cross section of people interested in events of international and national interest. Unfortunately, it is being spoiled by the orchestrated and exceptionally well-funded propaganda of the international Israel lobby. Not a single article is posted about Middle Eastern issues without the usual suspects being swung into action to pour out the never-ending litany of outright falsehoods, blatant half-truths and non-sequiturs which have been the hallmark of Israeli propaganda for generations. Not only does it insult the intelligence of readers and commenters who have taken the trouble to properly inform themselves on this important issue, but its predictablity and gormlessness is boring in the extreme.

Greggo says:

“This site is a great attempt at giving a voice to a wide cross section of people interested in events of international and national interest. Unfortunately, it is being spoiled by the orchestrated and exceptionally well-funded propaganda … Not a single article is posted about Middle Eastern issues without the USUAL SUSPECTS.

I couldn’t agree more:
The Middle East is bigger than the Palestinian /Arab Israeli theatre & it’s bigger than Iraq ,but all we keep hearing about are those bad Israelis & imperialist Americans.

When are we going to get daily front page coverage of the murder & rape of the Copts in Egypt ,the dispossession of the Armenians & Kurds in Turkey, the repression of opposition in Syria , religious totalitarianism in Iran etc etc etc…

It clear that someone’s manipulating the media but I don’t think it the Israel lobby ( what ever that is ?)

I certainly don't get paid for my contributions.

Please tell me where I can find this "international Israel lobby".

I could do with the extra income.

Israel didn't win or loose it gained breathing room and hopefully some respite from missile attack which has been going on for years. The message as stated by the Israeli government was that they were going to hold Lebanon responsible for Hezbollah and not consider them a rogue state with in a state considering that Hezbollah had representation in government. Hezbollah didn't win anything they aren't going to take by force. Hezbollah just proved aloud that it will do as it sees fit with Lebanon and the Lebonese best come to terms with that. Syria and Iran are not finished with Lebanon. Lebanon let the serpent of Hezbollah into her bedroom and now Lebanon will be eaten by her get. Poor buggers just finished what? 12 years of civil war and being controled by Syria.
Maybe Australia will consider the efficacy of such a stratagem. It was also used in Kashmir and Afghanistan by the Pakistani.

Thanks to aqvarivs, I rest my case.

greggo old spot you didn't have a case. You had a spent cartridge named conspiracy that you were waving about madly trying to convince the world you were intellectually armed. BOOO!

Dear Celeste...(Logic) no wonder your posts have had a more gentle flavor ...your female :) No offense, but there are differences in how males and females think on many issues such as human conflict.
Your approach looks at things in a kind of moral/ethical/kindly way whereas I look at them in terms of raw brutal human nature and history.
You seek to discect the Hezbollah issue into managable ethical slices, but I suggest that my outlined solution above (tragic and harsh as it may sound) is in the final analaysis the only workable one. But even then, it would (to be honest) not be a final one.

POLITICAL SETTLEMENT ?
Even if Shia Muslims were pushed into Syria, they would whine and moan and play the victim card at the UN and the world media and Syria and Iran would surely seek to address their displacement, which of course raises the other side of this ugly coin-"A political settlement".... but this is as fraught with problems as the other.

A NIGHTMARE OF THE HEZBOLLAH KIND
Hezbollah (acting as a proxy for Iran) clearly wish to take control of Lebanon, and this, would be a nightmare beyond comprehension for Israel.

see THIS for examples of Shia fanaticism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewb255rrPzM imagine this moron in charge of Lebanon !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V548WKjVjC4

GREGGO.. if I may illuminate you to some possibly unpalatable facts of life. There is little ultimate morality and good guys/bad guys in international politics. Its about "enemies" and "allies" in the struggle for survival. Your mention of the 'usual suspects' and international Israel lobby only prove to show which side of the fence you sit. I sit on Israel's side, on the side of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Mohammed and his Islamic minions are my enemy and my countries enemy. Anything which advances their cause is to be legally fought.....Spiritually,Politically, and if neccessary Militarily,to the death.

David

I appreciate being called gentle but in fact I am a male. Indeed an engineer in a very masculine occupation.

I am sure that neither Lebanon nor Israel wanted this war but Lebanon was either not able or not willing to confront Hezbollah who were threatening both states and the UN Forces placed there were useless. Israel feared for its collective life.

We have to realise that the West relies heavily on oil and has a great social and economic need for a stable supply. Unfortunately a great deal of it is in the hands of mad despots who would not hesitate to use it as a weapon to pull others down. They are not in the least concerned for others, not even for the suffering of their own subjects.

The Middle East deserves a much better life but the problem is neither with the US nor Israel. The populace must confront their own weaknesses rather than using others as a scapegoat for their own failings. They have a great discrepancy between rich and poor, enough to cause a revolution, and the religious fanatics are manipulating this to pushing a very narrow way of life that will make the people even worse off and give raw power to the Immans and Ayatollahs.

In fact the result of the war allowed Israelis to leave their shelters and return to their homes and get on with their lives knowing that the Hezbollah rockets are for the time being out of range. I wish that the majority of the Lebanese had the same chances, but this is not something that Israel can achieve. That is in the hands of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and the UN. What a combination!

BOAZ_David: "I sit on Israel's side, on the side of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Mohammed and his Islamic minions are my enemy and my countries enemy. Anything which advances their cause is to be legally fought.....Spiritually,Politically, and if neccessary Militarily,to the death."

Speaking of mindless, abject, fanatical fundamentalism, ...

Greggo

Never mind David, at least he included some reasoned arguments. Look at your contribution:

“...the never-ending litany of outright falsehoods, blatant half-truths and non-sequiturs which have been the hallmark of Israeli propaganda for generations. “

Talk about the pot and the kettle.

Leigh: "Hezbollah should have been wiped out. Mad dogs cannot be tamed and allowed to live."

Hmm... sounds like something a mad organisation would say. Care for a little fanaticism anyone? Or let me guess... they were mean 'first' right?

Okey doke - first up, the 'Israel lobby.'

Sure, there are some funded groups out there, there was that whole kerfuffle with the HRW and so forth. But honestly, bloggers? I know it's possible, but here's a more likely scenario - this is an issue which stirs up passions within people, and they in turn express themselves, much like any other issue. It doesn't mean cash has swayed hands, honestly, that kind of conspiracy crap really...

Yes there are funded organisations, but there are also plenty of people out there who hold firm to those beliefs, and shock, horror, some of the probably blog.

This article was about as even handed as any you are going to get on this issue. It doesn't preach, it doesn't really try to sway anybody, yet it still expresses an opinion.
For avoiding partisan language alone and keeping the issue in perspective I give it top marks.

The only issue I have with it is the title... how is it an article that calls itself 'War against hezbollah was a political disaster' has the phrase

'both sides achieved significant gains that may ultimately outweigh their losses and shift the dynamics of the conflict into a stable equilibrium.'

Odd.

Dear Greggo....

I just draw your attention to one minor point..... my 'solution' was based on the pattern established by Mohammed, prophet of Islam, and it is he to whom the Palestinians, and Hezbollah and Hamas all look for their salvation and JUSTIFICATION for their attacks on Israel.

Haniya just this week underlined in Iran "We will NEVER recognize Israel"... now how long is 'never' ?

I also happen to be aware of what that is BASED on... its article 11 of the Hamas charter which states that the whole area is an 'Islamic waqf'....now... please don't describe me as a mindless fanatic, because if the Muslims find out, they will quickly realize you are condemning their own prophet and probably behead you for insulting him.
Yes..that last bit was a bit adventurous, but I think you see my point ?

You see.. I have gone to the HEART of the problem not its symptom.

When a body has cancer, you don't just chop out one little nodule, you have to get it all out.

If you think my views here are mindless fanatcism :) wait till you see me at flinders street station with a team and a banner saying 'ONE NATION, ONE RACE ONE CULTURE...full stop" what you might not understand though, is why those holding it are Maori, and beside them are a black sudanese, and then a Jew and then a Palestinian Arab from Ramalla, and there will be Asians and maybe even an Indian, oh.. not to forget the white aussie also :)
But I'll give you a hint "Galatians 3.28"
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&version=31

greggo
Ahmadinejad announced this evening that he is going to hold an Iranian study group to investigate whether or not NAZI's used ovens on the Jews and the veracity of the holocaust. Does this fit into your "-orchestrated and exceptionally well-funded propaganda of the international Israel lobby. Not a single article is posted about Middle Eastern issues without the usual suspects being swung into action to pour out the never-ending litany of outright falsehoods, blatant half-truths and non-sequiturs which have been the hallmark of Israeli propaganda for generations."
Or do you too deny the pictorial evidence brought home after the war by British, American and Canadian servicemen who helped liberate the death camps? The Mid-East has been about an Israeli/Arab regional conflict since 1948. Palistine, lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Suadi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan have taken their shot and most in some backroom way still take shots at Israel. They're not being victimized by Israel. Explore the meanings of Dar al-Harb and Dal al-Islam. Hint: Israel is Dal al-Harb and that is the thorn in the paw of the Arab lion.

"ONE NATION, ONE RACE, ONE CULTURE?".

This well-worn mantra has always reminded me of "Ein Folk, Ein Flag, Ein Fuhrer" and all its variants down through history.

The method may change from time-to-time but the sentiment is always strangely similar.

This time it's not so much Ethnic Cleansing but Culture Cleansing.

Sorry greggo those Islamic religious/political concepts are Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. Missed the misspelling in prepost review.

Dear Wobbles
did you look at my Biblical Reference ? Looks like I have to make my ‘hint’ a bit clearer :)

See my response to your comment in the other thread where it is more on topic mate.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=299

AQVARVIS has captured the central element in this topic though. But don’t believe him/her or me. Just read very carefully article 11 of the HAMAS charter.

QUOTE:

Part III - Strategies and Methods
Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. ......because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection.

UNQUOTE

C0MMENT:
We can (Like brother Keith) go on about “pre 67 borders” till the moo cows wander home, BUT.. clearly from the above quote, that would never satisfy Hamas or its supporters because the...WHOLE area of Palestine is an “Islamic”...Waqf.
Now.. clearly if it is an ‘Islamic’ issue, the core to understanding the conflict is THEOLOGICAL rather than territorial.

So, I refer you all to my rather brutal scenario above, which I might add is an ‘Islamic’ one. But the Muslims don’t like it when you turn the tables on them, yet they rejoice about re-entacting the slaughter of the Jews of Khaibar and name one of their Missiles after that infamous act of inhumanity.

Kanana, Jewish chief at Khaibar was asked by Mohammed “Where is the treasure” and was told if he did not disclose it 100% his life was forfeit. He did not disclose fully and was executed. The Jews should ask. “Do you support the Hamas Charter ? your life hangs on your response”
The Jews should also recount these events at Khaibar to any Muslim they capture to historically contextualize the judgment.

Boaz,

Can you add this link to your 'biblical research'

"Mohammed in the Bible”

http://www.jamaat.net/muhinbible/muhinbible.html

Peace,

T :)

Wow. A Christian proposing that the Israelis should literally exterminate Hezbollah (well, the males anyway) and justifies it on the basis of his understanding of Islamic texts. I think he's become even more extreme of late, as embodied in his "activist" fantasies.

"...all the males must be hunted down and summarily executed."

"I sit on Israel's side, on the side of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Mohammed and his Islamic minions are my enemy and my countries enemy. Anything which advances their cause is to be legally fought.....Spiritually,Politically, and if neccessary Militarily,to the death. "

Cripes. Boaz needs to realise that, while "Mohammed and his Islamic minions" may be his enemy, they most certainly are not the enemy of his country. Despite his fantasies, Australia is not engaged in any kind of war against Islam and Muslims. Despite our obvious failure to achieve them, our purported objectives in the current war are to locate and destroy imaginary Weapons of Mass Destruction and bring democracy and peace to the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Despite certain similarities, it is not and hopefully never will be any kind of religious crusade, despite Boaz's desire for one. I think the creepily Nazi-like slogan for his personal culture war is designed to obscure his real agenda, which is an exclusively religious one. I agree with Wobbles about "culture-cleansing", except that in Boaz's utopian vision it's more like "Ein Folk, Ein Flag, Ein Jesus".

C.J. Being Christian does not mean I cannot make historical observations.
But your suggestion that a ‘Christian’ is dabbling in horrific things, is testimony to the actual point of my post which was to illuminate the reality of Militant Islam.
Your comment ‘my understanding’ of Islamic history is quite spurious and misleading, suggestive of lack of research and lack of ability to comprehend simple English. Sorry, my points are well researched and well sourced and are not simply ‘my’ understanding of Islamic documents.

EUROPE and ISLAM
Speech to Pim Fortuyn memorial Conference, Europe and Islam (Douglas Murray)

A culture which is imbued with relativism, argues Murray, can in the end find no reason to fight for its own salvation. Europe can only save itself, .. if it unambiguously stands up for its values and rediscovers absolutism in the defence of these values.

CHAMBERLAIN
In 1938, when German troops had again crossed into territory that was not theirs, the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain flew to Munich to see Herr Hitler. In his understandable desire for peace, Chamberlain agreed terms, gave up not just some ground, but the entire nation of Czechoslovakia, and returned to London

CHURCHILLS immortal words on Chamberlains return.

“You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour and now you will have war.”

COMMENT
History proved Churchill right and Chamberlain wrong.

HEZBOLLAH (Shia) and FREE PATRIOTIC MOVEMENT (Christian) are officially ‘allies’ in the attempt to overthrow the government of Lebanon. Strange bedfellows indeed, but given that this provides the Christians a bit of clout against their former Sunni and Druze enemies during the civil war, is mildly understandable.

ISRAEL and HEZBOLLAH. The above alliance is one regrettable political cost to Israel, and will not help them if Hezbollah revive their ‘destroy Israel’ path with Iran pulling the strings.
Personally, I think the FPM have been seduced by Muslim Hezbollah and are in fact “Dhimmi’s in waiting.” Once Iran starts to kick off its proxy war against Israel things will not improve for Lebanese Christians who will now become legitimate targets for Israel.

David

"....things will not improve for Lebanese Christians who will now become legitimate targets for Israel.".

You know as well as I do that, Arab propaganda not withstanding, Israel has in fact not targeted any group who has not attacked or been perceived to have seriously threatened it. This includes the days of Hagannah.

This is not to say that Israel's record is perfect but all countries at war with an aggressor, including the UK have made understandable mistakes at times.