You have all missed one important point....

The veil/hijab was used, even in pre-Islamic times, to "protect" oneself from sight. It was also used as a symbol of status - "high class" persons, even men, used to veil-up in order to separate themselves from the lower classes i.e. slaves and prostitutes.

So, Islam came along... and this "custom" was kept, but re-framed so that women, in particular, were "protected" from others seeing(and desiring) them. However, it should be noted that in those times (in B.C. Assyria, Mesopotamia & Persia), women were largely treated as chattels (or "meat")

How this translates into the C21st is now somewhat convoluted. It appears to be one of paternalistic, chauvinistic and sometimes violent ownership. (You can't see the bruises underneath a hijab! - and who cares as long as the cow can still beget sons!)

In the end, it is up to the wearer of the veil/hijab. If he/she wants to state his/her religious conviction so starkly, so be it. He/She shouldn't, in return, expect a rational response to such irrational (as is all religion) behaviour.

I do not have any problems with hijabs. However, I have read numerous times that the hijab is not an ancient form of head covering, but was invented in Iran during the 1970s as a protest against the westernisation of the country under the Shah.

So in actual fact, it *is* a protest against Western society. Muslim women are wearing a head dress that was originally created as a symbol that the wearer is against western customs and values.

If Western women go uncovered in Islamic societies, they are regarded as showing contempt for Muslims and refusing to obey the customs of the country.

So how are we to regard a person who wears an item of clothing that was created as a symbol of resistance to our values and way of life?
Do hijab-wearers regard it as simply an outward sign that they are devout Muslims, or do they wear it to symbolise their rejection of Western values? I would truly like an answer to this question.

" .. once, Islam was believed to be a religion of moderation and peace."

How can a religion that refuses to accept any other belief be regarded as either peaceful or moderate? Wherever Islam reigns, non-Muslims are persecuted and classified as 'dhimmis' and refused the rights that are granted to Muslims. This has never changed.

Christians and other non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religions in Islamic countries, often on pain of imprisonment or even death. How can this be regarded in any way as 'moderate' or 'peaceful'?

Perhaps when Islamic countries allow Christian churches, synagogues and temples to be built alongside mosques, and their congregations to worship in freedom, the 'peaceful, moderate' description will be valid.

Albs

“Cornflower, no offence but I don't think you know too much about "Western feminism".”

No problem, critics of Western feminism are used to the standard defensive ploy wherein they immediately abuse the critic. So I expected personal sledging. I was not to be disappointed.

“If anything "western feminists" have a much more positive view of men than many fundie religious zealots, men's rights activists and the rest of their ilk who profit off the subjegation (sic) of women in all cultures.”

You may say that when it is convenient for your argument, however it doesn’t take much reading of ONO and papers to get the drift that Western feminists would willingly sodomise the nearest man with a pineapple if they got the chance. Sorry to be frivolous but Western feminists, especially those ensconced in academia, lost contact with women long ago.

”Feminists don't hate men.”

Maybe you should read some of the feminist authors contributing to ONO.

”There has been some criticism of western feminists preoccupation with the veil as a symbol of oppression whilst ignoring the very real problems that women in developing countries face (i.e. the veil is the least of their problems) that's a fair enough criticism and one that "Western feminists" reflect on and debate within their own ranks.”

Demonstrably, Western feminists, in particular those spearheading gender feminism, are most unattractive to Eastern feminists because they:

Hate and exclude men (apart from the odd trained trophy mangina);

Hate family;

Put career, materialism and conspicuous consumption ahead of motherhood and family;

Trash spirituality;

Trash any sense of community, advocating individualism and ‘greed is good’; and

Purport to destabilising and hopefully destroying the political systems of which they are part.

To cap it all off, Western feminists talk down to and patronise Eastern feminists. This should come as no surprise because that is the usual modus operandi of Western feminists.

“So stop being so goddam obnoxious- you're trading on a fallacy.”

Eastern feminism is attractive to many Western women too, who welcome their affirmation of feminine strength, spirituality and positive, incrementalist approach to change.

It is interesting in this day and age in which 'feminism' is supposedly passe (if you read some of the posts on OLO), that again the debate tends to focus on the apparent subjugation of women, something that exists in almost every society. The outward trappings of women's 'uniform' is again a tool used for power purposes whether it is for religion or capitalism. By the way, I saw a television program made in France which consisted of interviews with women who wear the veil. The overall result was that the women interviewed thought that they looked nice or that they wore it to please their husbands. I don't remember any of them saying they wore it on religious grounds. While this is only a microcosm of women, it was very thought provoking.

As for 'eastern' or 'western' feminism; that is one being better than the other, let's not forget why feminism is in existence. It is because women still do not have the choices and flexibilities they should have notwithstanding the gender mainstreaming of public policy. The way policy is set up these days, if you are not in the market you are devalued which is something the socialist feminists have been arguing for decades. As for raising a family then having a career, in this day and age you are dooming yourself to a life of low paid work and caring duties until you are 65 and then if you are lucky, an age pension. The way work and superannuation is set up, if you want to live decently when you are older it is 40 years full time employment. As women mainly work part time or casually, they are disadvantaged in policy if they have children.

It is typical that debate focuses on the outward manifestations of a perceived problem. I would have thought the primary objection people have with the muslim religion is because it uses terrorism to prove its point and to obtain power.

Hello Rayaan,

This muslim woman Shakira speaks for herself.

My eyes are opened now as a muslim woman Shakira speaks about her experiences:

Eyes opened by Islamic chauvinism

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20673860-601,00.html

" Mustafa - tried to drag her under their control in the name of Islam."

" As soon as we made contact, he said I should be living under my father's roof, or with my grandmother, or an aunt.

"I didn't realise how serious he was. I just told him that I wasn't interested."

"He (Mustafa) would berate me about that, in part because she was Jewish, but also because I was living out of home," she said.

"Eventually I told him to get lost, mind his own business. But he would come to the house, knocking on the door, to insist I come home with him, to live under our father's roof."

"where a young man, a relative, would decide how I should live, or dress, or behave."

"We should know from London that young Muslim men are feeling disenfranchised - they do not fit into their own cultures, or into Western cultures - and we should not have leaders encouraging them toward this frightening, controlling behaviour."

I am sure this is happening in almost all muslim families.

I grew up in South Africa, and for 30years of my life lived under the Aparthied regime. Needless to say, that experience has left me deeply scarred.

My life in Australia became a learning curve, learning to trust people from a Caucasian background was a huge challenge for me personally, I learned that in this country which prides itself on giving everyone a fair go, a country that has modelled itself on mateship, is not immune to racism, in fact it is just as rife here as it was in South Africa, the only difference being it is not legislated, yet. If a referrandum should be held tommorow to legislate against freedom of religious expression or identity, Islam will be banned, Talk back Radio will make shore of that.

Before 9/11/2001 the spot light was on the Asian communities, they were blamed for everything that ailed this country, all the same rethoric, not assimalating, not speaking English, highest crime rate, now it's people of Middle Eastern appearance (Muslims).

To the Muslim women I say do not compromise your right to wear whatever you choose to, to all those women who believe in the rights of others, to choose for themselves their destiny, and their own makeup, I say power to you.