Col Rouge,

Bobtail,bobbity?

Ah, I see, Spelling my name incorrectly on purpose. Very witty.

"FACT it the world is run on individualism."

Really? Where is the proof for this? Tens of millions of people live communal lifestyles and communal aspects are apart of tens of millions more. Thousands of men have fought and died to defend their countries, people like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King etc. have given decades of their lives for a social struggle, the list is endless. I suspect your dislike for experts is because they demand facts and sources to back your assertions.

"Fact you, bobbity, have a higher affinity, sense of responsibility and interest in your family than you do for mine. The difference between us, I admit it rather than hypocritically deny it."

I, in fact never mentioned it. Using strawman arguments is a another typical libertarian tactic.

"You do not know what benefits I endow this “society” with nor what “sacrifices” I have made, throughout my life, to become and discharge my responsibilities as an Australian Citizen. "Discharge" including participation in the taxation system, upholding our laws, contributing to the development of my profession in Australia, engaging in bringing up my children and more recently in developing an organisation which empowers others to earn an extremely good income."

So? I pay my taxes too and a whole host of other things. All the rest of things you mentioned millions of other people do everyday. Like a typical Libertarian, you missed my main point completely(probably purposely). I pointed out that in a society the the free will of some is suppressed to the benefit of all. Such as enforcing drug laws, child protection laws, enforcing fire bans on properties, pollution controls on factory emmisions etc. Of course being unable to counter this point, like scientific evidence and expertise presented to you, you simply ignore it.

The rest of your point relating to me, is cheap insults. You seem almost frothing at the mouth. You are much closer in naive belief to those marxists that you dislike so much.

Hasbeen “"Public Transport Produces 15% More GHG, Per passenger Kilometer, Than The Private Car".

The ABC, as a mouth piece of the entrenched socialists, would have to bury that article, anything which disputes the need for collectivism is censored on the spot, God forbid people should be allowed to read or hear about the “politically incorrect” TRUTH.

Logic – I have been around long enough to decide for myself when someone is telling the truth, someone blowing smoke and others are just plain incompetent.

Having commuted on the London tube, regularly for 6 years in the 1970/1980s I recall what a putrid and demeaning experience it was, filthy seats and carriages, poor services which ran to suit the unionized drivers, the commuters be damned. I also recall when Dearest Maggie tore up the rail network monopoly.

When private coaches were allowed to compete with the London underground network ,my weekly travel costs dropped to one third of what the train service charged.

The expertise you talk of is merely a skill to fleece the consumer / commuter and hoodwink the rest of us into believing that public transport is necessary, (like other incompetent nationalized industries) the only expertise you could identify there is that of the conman and grifter.

Expertise, I hold professional qualifications and the respect of my peers in that profession. Similarly the clients who I supply competitive business services to. I do not any affirmation from you.

Oh “rape and robbery”. Hyperbole driven by desperation, completely illogical.

Oh and what I know is public transport is an uneconomic waste of resources which would not need the huge subsidies from petrol taxes paid by motorists if it were any good.

Bobalot “Nelson Mandela,”

There is an individual, someone who made choices in his life, someone who it would be hard to find another example of.

Using Nelson Mandela as an example when arguing against the worth or rights of individuals fails on more points than I can be bothered to mention.

Nelson Mandela survived and endured because he is, first and foremost, an exemplary INDIVIDUAL.

Col, you are just a sad old Thatcherite and your contributions to this thread have thrown that into stark relief as never before. "ABC is a mouthpiece of entrenched socialists". What a laugh . What's next - reds under the bed? Are you also still worried about the communist menace and the yellow peril

Col

You say you are professional, I sometimes wonder.

So the London Underground was not comfortable to you. I once had an old car which smelt of petrol and rattled. By comparison the Tube would have been very comfortable. You see it depends on the quality of the service. Have you been on the Madrid or Hong Kong or Zurich Metros? Probably not. Public Transport is in many cities superior to car travel. And the Tube is still poor and expensive compared with those other cities. Maggie did not achieve much.

And you dismiss out of hand my argument against your apparent belief in absolute individual choice. I bought up the subject of rape and robbery as an extreme example of where individuals cannot be always allowed choice. A reducto absurdum argument, do you understand that? Say what is your profession?

And you quote Hasbeen on "Public Transport Produces 15% More GHG, Per passenger Kilometer, Than The Private Car". To an engineer with practical experience as well as a University education this sounds nonsense unless the public transport is under-utilized. The sort of thing that would be produced by the RACV or the NRMA by biased writers who claim to be engineers.

You are so egotistical and yet you mount an attempt at argument that would fail a year 12 student.

Col

Sorry a typo. I should have written "reducto ad absurdum"

"Bobalot “Nelson Mandela,”

There is an individual, someone who made choices in his life, someone who it would be hard to find another example of."

There are people like these everyday, social workers, churchmen, etc. Not as famous, but whose altruism there is no doubt. Who contribute everyday to make a better society. They do not operate completely out of self interest and invidualism (Which Libertarians such as youself continually repeat like a prayer to your god which seems to be the free-market). Which is the point I have been trying to make, you make have been selectively ignoring. Governments and society work through both individualism and collective action not extremes of either. Name one Libertarian society that exists on earth that is relatively well off... the closest is Somalia. Weak Central Government, No regulations, No real system of taxation, No road rules, etc. It also happens to be one of the most poorest countries on Earth. It's funny how there is no rush of libertarians to go and live in this libertarian paradise.

"Nelson Mandela survived and endured because he is, first and foremost, an exemplary INDIVIDUAL."

What the is the point of this this mindless blathering? Everybody is an individual. No-one is saying that this is not the case. Like a typical Libertarian you keep trying bring up strawman arguments.

The world is built by the individuals and by societies. How can an individual operate if not within a society which has collective action? It is impossible. How can a business man be free to safely sell his goods if society as a whole has not agreed on laws? It is impossible.

As to another point, I have pointed out twice why sometimes individual choice or freedom is suppressed for the good of society. Twice you have simply ignored it. Libertarians typically do this, just like those delusional marxists. I can only assume you are not going to actually answer my point and instead keep posting the same old libertarian dogma over and over. So this will be my last post in this thread.