Brain Drain

It seems to me that Jesus said don't be of this world. Be in it, but not of it. He didn't say to the Jews take over the Roman world. He didn't say get into politics. He said tell the world of the salvation he offers. When Pontius Pilate asked him if he was the king of the Jews, Jesus said "You say it."

I'm not preaching ethics to you. I telling you what I think the Bible says. It says the ruler of the world is the devil, who is the father of lies, and of murder. The father of Cain.

And what is the world? Politics. Politics is a human solution. It is your choice if you seek it. When did Jesus run for office? Never.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. The work of the devil is sin (mankind sinning), the wages/compensation of which is death (human mortality). He did that by dying on the cross for our sins. That is a message of hope. He put an end to death, should we choose to follow.

He gave us an example to follow. Lean on him, not on our own understanding. Lean on the Holy Spirit.

What does the Holy Spirit say about this conversation we're having?
Ask in all things about everything, says God. So, what does he say?

I really don't know what you think on all the issues you think you have presented in this conversation, the issues which you expect me to agree with. Further, there is no need for me to agree with you.

My mission is to present what Jesus said to the world. That is what offers all humans everywhere the most hope -- whether or not they believe it, it is a fact.

OK Hawaiilawyer your last post made some reasonable points.

I think we are geting slightly off-post (the topic was about an 'Immoral' Jesus: one who did what was 'wrong' as those in power (on Earth) would have had 'us' see it, and how those in power 2000 years later might expect their followers to see it (Him or those who do like Him) today.

Having said that - back to your post.

Is it possible for you to post a biblical quote(s) that encapsulates your first comment? - That Jesus beseeched us to be 'in' the world but not 'Of' it? I would like to see for myself Jesus' motives there.

I know you are not preaching anything like ethics to me. Your earlier posts however made statements that could be incorrectly interpretted by some very easily into justifying Bush's stance on hiding the Truth from his people - something i do not believe is ever justified, certainly not on Climate Change and those most responsible for it.

Using the fear of global domination by Muslim or Communist dictatorships as justification for our elected leaders lying to us and using political standover tactics to keep the truth from being known i do not agree with at all.

My argument applies equally to those people in such areas of politics as those you seemingly vilify.

Clearly if Jesus came, as you claim, to destroy the works of the Devil he has not succeeded in the last 2000 years and much of mankind has suffered horribly here by holding onto such a fantasy.

Jesus did not put an end to death (more christian fantasy). I do not believe that humans could not find Eternal Life before Jesus was born, so His 'death' on the cross did not provide that for all of mankind either.

I do not deny Jesus' birthright or his value as a role model but i make claims based upon his words in the Bible and elsewhere and do not trust one iota 'traditional' christian instruction and dogma.
(cont)

I do so in an attempt to make the World (the only reality i am definitively aware of) politically and morally a better place so that more may understand and take back power over their own lives rather than giving it away to others to abuse.

To that end we may have similar motives and beliefs although we both might be suspect of each other and the way we seem to bring them into being.

Forgive me if i feel your words show you as more interested in a better life hereafter than improving the one we are all condemned to endure here now. I don't have quite the faith you seem to have in what that actually entails (the coming of an Antichrist; thousand years of satanic rule; and the 'New Jerusalem on Earth' - the Golden Age)

The hope you seem to rely on appears to me to be a fabrication by christian elite rulers intent upon keeping that power for themselves by getting their followers to believe that only they can correctly interpret God's word and determine dogma and scripture to reinforce that position.

My position is to offer a more immediate hope - one that involves making the real world a better place, by challenging the 'devils' work wherever and whenever i 'detect' it.

Braindrain,

Just so you don't misinterpret my comments ... there seems to be some George Bush issue kicking around that I'd rather not backtrack to and get involved with.

"Is it possible for you to post a biblical quote(s) that encapsulates your first comment..."

You quoted a number of scriptures. If you got them from your own reading rather than subjecting power to another then keep reading in the New Testament and you won't be able to miss it. I don't believe Jesus became a hippy until the 70s when people associated Da Vinci's long haired Jesus with the hippy culture. Prior to that he was God.

"I do not deny Jesus' birthright or his value as a role model but i make claims based upon his words in the Bible and elsewhere and do not trust one iota 'traditional' christian instruction and dogma."

What do you mean by "elsewhere" and do you get the Bible words yourself or are they ones someone else selected?

"...take back power over their own lives rather than giving it away to others to abuse."

In my opinion noone is an island. You are entitled to your opinion but promise you won't give power to people who are much more likely to abuse you then a priest.

"The hope you seem to rely on appears to me to be a fabrication by christian elite rulers intent upon keeping that power for themselves by getting their followers to believe that only they can correctly interpret God's word and determine dogma and scripture to reinforce that position."

If you take away faith is it really all that good to spend your time being considered such an authority in a secularizing world? Just a few paragraphs back you seemed to accept Jesus' words. Now you seem to be rejecting Churches.

"My position ... involves making the real world a better place, by challenging the 'devils' work wherever and whenever i 'detect' it."

I wouldn't call that unChristian. If you love and respect people in the process you are very close to that which you criticize

Part I:

1) Hebrews 11:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the
word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things
which do appear.
...But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that
cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewa
rder of them that diligently seek him.

2) John l:l
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.

[Jesus is the Word, and he is God. The Bible is the Word, not some
figment of an elitist human imagination]

3. The work of God is to believe the one he sent.

[God the father sent God the son to explain things of God to
humans. The Bible is the story of the lives of numerous
individuals who believed, or had difficulties believing,
or believed then backtracked -- and God relates what actually
happened in each case -- to draw pictures for us all, based
on real lives -- like reality t.v. before t.v. was ever
invented, except this time, true reality].


In the world but not of it:

l)Matthew l6:26:

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

2) Matthew 4:l-11

2) Matthew 4: 8

...the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and
sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou
wilt fall down and worship me.
Then saith Jesus unto him, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

All human problems start with human choices. In order to change bad choices, Jesus as God offers a metachoice to each individual -- change the source of his/her guidance system.

The two commandments of God which sum up the ten l) love your God with all your heart, mind... = choose him as the rudder/guide of your life and 2) love your neighbor as yourself. Don't do to others what you wouldn't like done to you. Don't steal. Don't kill. Don't lie. Don't cheat. Don't commit adultery. Don't destroy others. This is the formula for a happy life. It is also the formula for "peace on earth, good will toward men". Jesus is the prince of peace.

He offers himself as the rudder of mankind. He offers those who have done some of these sins a fresh start, an opportunity to be forgiven, and a helper in times of need (the Holy Spirit).

This is supernatural help. He's not a human role model. He's God come in the flesh to be the map -- "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life..." John l4:6.

He gives people who choose to be born again in the spirit of God the opportunity and God-reinforced power to choose not to do the Cain thing, the Jezebel thing (advising her husband Ahab how to steal a neighbor's land through false testimony and murder). They change through what they choose not to do, their little corner of the world.

Each one saved, guided to change their choices through the help of the spirit of God.

Jesus as God knew, and knows, what he is doing. Omniscient = all-knowing.