AAAhhh yes..Tony.. me mate..... here is that prejudiced ignorant Boaz back to bug you.....

I've often said... "Without a divine reference point, all morality is relative" and I get poo pooed to the nth degree... I get called every olo allowable name under the sun... bigoted.. racist.. armchair nazi.. to name but a few.

HERE IT IS..... for all you tolerant progressives 'there is no God' and 'we don't need God' mob...

Tony.. 'evolving' eh.. of course you mean socially right ?

Ok...check this out. HERE IS THE END GAME....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naastenliefde,_Vrijheid_&_Diversiteit

Let me ask the question..evolving to WHERE ?

The link above gives us a good idea.. and as I've said AD NAUSEUM:

"Paedophiles are going to use the SAME arguments as the homosexuals to legitimize their behavior"

Nambla are already doing it, and now this mob in the link. A POLITICAL PARTY dedicated to child porn and Paedophilia... where could it happen ? aah.. ANYwhere there are people dimwitted enough to believe the tripe trotted out by the progressives that 'no.. of course this would never happen'. But it IS happening in the enlightened land of "Pot Cafes" etc... Netherlands.

So, yes, we are 'evolving' and spinning out of control down a murky slippery slope right to the gates of Hell. Cheered on by Tony and Mercurious ?

And if some bloke walked up and down Swanston street with a sandwich sign "REPENT".. he would be ridiculed, but never a truer word has been spoken.

John the Baptist would make no bones about saying what needs to be said... but they said "He has a demon".. Jesus told it like it is, and they said "He is a glutton and a drunkard".

Noooo..we just don't like people from God interrupting our slippery dip do we ? They are an irrational lot.. misguided, demented, in need of 'healing' from the disease of religion...

but...

Tony you sucked the taxpayers' tit for too long. You lived in a statist paradise.If you and your coterie could do nothing then your mission in life was worthless

Nice article Tony, I hope we can make Australia a more decent place to live in.

Tony,

What an old worry wart your are. I'm the same age as you. I have seen the same things. But I don't dump on my country and its people the way you do every time you contribute to OLO. I'm one of those Anglo/Saxon/Celtic 'brutes' and glad of it. Australians have no more to apolgise for, or feel guilty about, than any other people around the world. Australia is no worse than any other comparable country, and much better than most as a place to live; attested to by all of those 'discriminated-against' immigrants you seem to think are yours to worry over.

And, once again: Islam is not a bloody race! It is a religion. You have freely hawked your qualifications around, but you don't seem to understand many things

After reading Lapkin's piece across the way, I read Tony Kevin's missive in order to be cleansed. Reading this was like taking a much needed sauna - followed by a dip in springwater. It's amazing how exposure to primitive hatreds gets right in to the pores.

Ahhhhhhhh - that's better.

Thanks Tony.

Thank you, Tony, for this moving and honest account. Congratulations on this and on all you have done in public life.

Thanks from me too Tony. I am a little younger than you, just turned 60. I spent my working career in the public service and watched the standards of integrity slide over that time, both politicians and public servants. It used to be a standard rule that public servants would provide impartial advice to Ministers without fear or favour. Now the only advice that goes on the record is what the pollies want to hear.
I too in my retirement will try to do my little bit to try and halt the slide down the slippery slope.
And B_D, religion, Christianity or otherwise, is not the answer to the problem no matter how much you keep preaching.

Mr. Kevin you unfashionably reveal your inner thoughts and hope of fairer society.
Maybe Australia still has elements that make it a better place, particularly than more riven countries, some by us .
To day is the time of girding up, to defeating, in the terminology of the fashionable, the Islamo-Fascists (whoever they are not within the definition of Paxton The Anatomy of Fascism, still our treasurer uses it so it must mean something, a rallying cry like ‘get the ###’ perhaps).
Revelations of compromise and wonder have no part.
This is serious, the zealots of religion are being stirred to fight not debate and politicians benefit.
Terrorism by us is not terrorism we wear uniform and don’t bomb civilian targets that is why there are so many casualties Someone does a computation, using agreed methods published in peer reviewed journal and it is denied, some torture or in panic break the rules of war, exceptions, bad apples.
The different are terrorist, morally adrift..
Lies? Which ones? Iraq as shown in the Downing Street Memo, see Mark Danner the Way to Secret War and many others.
Purity? Fairness? Media events?
How big is child abuse and what is meant, just sexual, which is interesting and thus concerns so many? How many women involved? Is early training brand identification, abuse?
I am diverted!
Might is right profit is morality are to-days calls and whilst revelations such as yours are attractive they should only be aired in private. No one is interested in SIEV X, that is yesterday. We say who comes here!
To day is white chargers and God’s cause(any, they will fight), diverting from issues and so power prevails and crazies rule our world spouting moralistic nonsense.
In a world of shrinking resources we are being prepared.Leaders live on.

Australia is still evolving...meaning we all can affect where we end up... I for one want an Australia for my little girl- 6 years old, where she lives in an society of ordinary decent people where she has the right and opportunity to seek her happiness as an adult of her own choosing provided it does not disrupt the fundamental must to continue as 'ordinary decent people' society.

HIstory is spread with people forming societies and governments to govern them, and sub groups hungry for power and authority hijack the government for their own interest until the government no longer represents the people, 'animal farm society' develops where all people are equal but some are more equal- hence demand unequal rights and benefits', and we all know that it is a dead end, when the dust settles there is destruction of not only our lives but animals, plants and fish with the mother earth that sustains us... for the remaining to build another society of ordinary decent people, for most of us want when we open our door to go out.

If it is god, that is those who believe that when we die then something survives us that has to deal with its maker before its journey is complete, that helps us maintain our self of communal decency, so it is. To others, if it is just good will to all men so the good will is returned, so it is. But let the common driving force to create and maintain a society of ordinary decent people continue strong and vigilantly...

We have to be vigilant, for we know the unbalanced selfish that hide among us will always act in deceptive skill and force to take away the fruits of our hard work, and we should have the street smart skills set to detect and prevent such from taking hold...meaning we all have a duty to watch each other to ensure we act to maintain a common decent society and strong enough to act to diminish the power and authority of those whom join to try harming this...

Sam

Another unhappy "B" grader, who failed to make director, biting the hand that fed it, & still does with a nice pension.
Unfortunately this subspecies appear to have a lot of fellow travelers.

Leigh if you complacently accept the shocking things Australia is doing to other people without cause then you probably are living in a vacuum somewhere off planet.
I am a 6th or 7 th generation Australian who became aware of aborigines in 1967 when the referendum was held to make them people in their own country. Are you proud of that? Does it make you feel all rosy inside that until 1967 all aborigines in their own country were listed under the flora and fauna act?

I was treated pretty terribly by my parents who were also very unhappily married so I don't understand why rich, spoilt white brats like our Liberals, Nationals and ALP can bear the notion that black kids here are dying 20 years before my own grandchildren will. Or how they could legislate to lock up innocent babies and children behind razor wire in the desert for years on end.

How could they stand silently by while Shayan Badraie, the Bakhtiyari children, Michael Yousefi and thousands of other children were being tortured in Woomera?

My oldest grand-daughter was 10 when the TAMPA was turned away and she has felt sickened and bereft for all those years. My youngest grand-daughter is 6 and I don't want this Australia for her.

I don't want an Australia that will blow up Afghanistan and Iraq because the US says to, and I don't want an Australia that cheerleads while Israel bombs Lebanon out of existence and persecutes and tortures the Palestinian people on their own land.

Grow up Leigh, you bring shame on your children and grand children while you complacently sit on your racism.

Dear Rossco
how right you are. "Religions" are the inventions of men. What I refer to is the simple return to our Creator in humility and sorrow for our waywardness.

TONY... I want to retract my rather harsh imputation toward you of 'cheering' us on the slippery slope. I re-read your article and am quite touched by the honesty and accuracy of the description of these changes in outlook and integrity over time.

The revelations that things turned out not to be quite as squeakly clean as you thought regarding our involvment in various world arena's are no surprise to me. I learnt a longgg time ago that sin just gets more sophisticated with the persons status, but its still sin.

I totally identify with what you said, and can say "I'm hearing you" but sadly, you offer nothing but 'try harder' to make a difference.

Rossco, if a return to the standards given by God is 'not' the answer, can you please enlighten me what is ? Don't you notice a correlation between the time period Tony refers to and the abandonment of the faith of our fathers from the 60s onward ?

As we travel further down the secular road, we are swamped with 'sex sells' at every level of life. I strongly urge you to read just how bad it got for Israel toward the end of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and what King Josiah had to do to restore things. See the incredible 'sexualization' of the whole society.
Please read just this chapter if you don't mind.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=23&version=31

Good as Josiah was, he made one fatal foreign policy mistake, which cost him his life.

ROSSCO
Please indicate something we can sink our teeth into to redeem our failing society. There is not much to choose from mate. But at least give us a hint of where we are in need. (according to you :)
Humanism
Marxism
anyother_ism

Nice article Tony. My experience is similar, if half as long.

Where is this country going? Is it run for the people or those that head the corporations?

Our genocidal immigration policy would indicate an unassimilated mass of squabbling ethnic groups is what Australia has to look forward to. For the benefit of the economy, of course.

BOAZ_David,
The idea of a Creator is a man made concept which defies any rational belief. But hey if you want to believe it go right ahead.

The Bible was written by ordinary human beings right here on earth; even the new testament came many years after Christ was supposed to have lived. The text has been translated from ancient languages into Latin and then into "old" English so who knows what has been lost in translation. If you are honest you will admit it has many inconsistencies and concepts which even the most fundamental Christians don't apply in the 21st Century.

You regularly quote from the Bible as if that was the be all of everything. It is only relevant to believers such as yourself. For non-believers in the Bible such as myself the words carry no more weight than any other text written by humans.

I try to live by the golden rule of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This I thought was something Christians believed but today many, including avowed Christians, have corrupted this to "do others in before they do you in".

I don't accept the idea that we should have to choose from a smorgasbord of "isms" to construct out lives. However if I had to choose one "ism" it would be Buddhism, but I am not a Buddhist and don't plan to become one.

Be genorous in spirit to your fellow man and accept all as they are.
I trust that you will see the error of your ways but if you don't then may your God be good to you.

Interesting. There's a species of baby boomer now looking back fondly on a lost and more traditional Australia, an Australia which was mostly undercut by a long ascendant left-liberalism.

However, rather than asking what might have been lacking in this left-liberalism, our baby-boomers are arguing that the main problem is that we are now not left-liberal enough.

This approach isn't going to work. If we become more left-liberal, then the things you liked about traditional Australia will recede ever further into the distance.

To put this another way: modern Australia is a creation of liberalism in general, and left-liberalism in particular. If you don't like what Australia has become it makes little sense to argue that the remedy is a larger dose of ... left-liberalism.

Let me be more specific. The author complains that families are less stable, with parents putting their own needs ahead of those of their children. But this is not a product of anything to do with the current government. The divorce rate shot up in the mid-1970s, due to legal changes instituted by a Labor Government.

A rising divorce rate was to be expected. The elites were following a liberal world view in which the most important goal was a kind of individual self-realisation in which it was thought progressive for people to pursue their own individual goals with an autonomy unimpeded by marriage vows. The Chief Justice of the Family Court, the impeccably left-liberal Alastair Nicholson, even argued that the high divorce rate was a moral good, as it represented a stage in human emancipation.

I wish the dismayed baby boomers would pause and sort out some of their (understandable) confusion before launching themselves into political action on behalf of the very philosophy which helped to create the situation they now decry.

Rossco, firstly on the Bible, if you grab any copy of the Koine bible you can see the New Testament at least as it originally was (it helps if you've studied ancient Greek), and you get the feeling from there about what it stands for, and the message is pretty clear. The Old Testament, being an attempt at a national history, with some excellent psalms, is agreed (outside of fundamentalist circles and those within organised religions who do not understand the fallacy of sola scriptura) to be of allegorical importance.

As Alexis De Tocqueville noted, Chrisitanity should be able to deal with modernisation better than Islam because it lacks a weight of religiously-based scientific ideas, and deals with the metaphysical in as un-physical terms as it possibly can... many of the problems of Christianity stem from a lack of exentuation of this.

This article above was an example of the reason why many serious Catholics are flocking to the Libs. The sort of idea that a decent society and societal norms have some sort of religious grounding is difficult to deny, simply because our society was formed over many years of Christian heritage. Other influences do exist... Darwinian social theories and Marxist social theories are two which have negatively affected Australia... but largely the good in our society can be sourced back to its Christian orgins. Partially, the DLP was a statement of this. The anti-communist struggle, despite being eminently sensible in retrospect, was a precursor of the ALP's shift to the middle class and to the social left. Now Labor works towards a social vision which, becuase it promotes the fracturing of society into individuals and new domestic arrangements, works at odds with their economic policy. This detachment means that movement of Catholics to the Libs is no suprise, and this is why men like Abbott draw great significance from those DLP days.

A measuring line has been applied to this once Great South Land......

and it has been found wanting.

“Mene Mene, tekel upharsin”

Your service stations are filled with Baal and Astheroth, leading many astray
Your Newsagents are awash with the glorification of the Starry host of the heavens,
Your Television chanels seek ever greater depths of depravity,
Your Radio stations pander to pride and play to your ego’s,
Your Magazines are like pimps for the gratification of the flesh,
Your internet is the doorway to the cult prostitutes, male and female
You nobles have become sorcerers, your fine young men have gone aside with harlots.
You steal a mans wife... and think nothing of it.
Your Nobles call evil 'good' and good 'evil'.
Your captains of industry seek ever greater rewards, joining panelled house to panelled house...
Your leaders of labor seek power over righteousness.

You hunger, for that which never fills, but you strive after it more,
You thirst for that which will never quench, but you open your mouth wide to drink it in,
You long for that which will never fulfill, yet you run as if in a marathon after it....

What happened to you my sweet bride, your beautiful white wedding dress is covered in squalid filth, I no longer recognize you. Your face has lost its glow, your eyes are filled with despair, your mouth has no smile. Your teeth are filled with scraps from the meal which never fills. I am repulsed, what has become of you, love of my heart ? What lured you away from our wedding ?

Has my love been so weak ? Have I not told you over and over of my deep affection ? Did I surround myself with a harem ? Was I unfaithful ? No my love. Come back, let me comfort you, let me surround your heart with my undying commitment, Let me enfold you in my arms of forgiveness.

Dave, I can't help noticing how you use pedophilia as a kind of club to bash people with.

But since it's been brought up, I thought I might misuse Tony's thread to bring the political use of that human aberration to everyone's attention. Rich and powerful people can become jaded in their search for ever greater "highs". Under the right circumstances, they can fall prey to the temptation of "forbidden fruit" - after which they are forever under the influence of hidden policy makers.

This blackmail is used to some extent to this very day, in order to pass unpopular legislation in the US Congress and Senate - and the judiciary.

In the early 1990's, Yorkshire TV and Discovery Channel made a documentary about this. The trail led to the Whitehouse of George Bush the elder. Release of the doco was crushed and the producers paid off, but one draft copy was leaked and survives here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3395321338401208062

It's a bit blurry and the audio is lousy - but well worth the concentration required.

Dave - here's your weekend viewing. Learn something about pedophilia and it's practical application to the war on freedom, terror and democracy.

Tony, spent years bleeding the country dry, a religious self-righteous egotist crying foul once his bed is firmly feathered.

The writers background portrays him completely incompetent, advocating remedial restoration of society, caused by his bureaucratic elitist ilk. Next he'll be running for parliament.

Sensible people see how credible those having any influence or power in the public service have been and the treason they've shown the people they supposedly serve, the public. Typical from a follower of god, bleating about how the system's gone bad, when they're the primary cause.

Rossco, those following god, only repeat themselves, that's how empty their lives are. The closest they get to any form of reality is, inflame, threaten, attack and condemn. Once found out, they push the repeat button in the futile hope, no one will notice the lack of substance or veracity in their statements.

Not one book of Yahweh, was written in the first hand. All were written long after the events, some hundreds of years later, that's no basis for fact, just hearsay and historical fallacy.

Where's the moral fibres of Kevins god and other bureaucrats, when they were witness to the decline into slime by the bureaucracy. Simple they go to church and for the rest of the week they disenfranchise the public, very moral indeed.

There's no way I want a return to the past. Our future's been hijacked by self-righteous religious bigots, claiming to be part of the answer to what they caused.

BD, “Please indicate something we can sink our teeth into to redeem our failing society “

We don't want to sink our teeth into anything, that's for monotheistic barbarians. We don't want any form of ideology from the past, we want a real future. Not one filled with despotic monotheists killing everyone, whilst they preach how brilliant and caring they are. Until we remove the causes, we can't have anything new, or it just gets contaminated with the old debauched beliefs. Your last post BD is a perfect example of the empty vessel you are, meaningless garbage.

Here's some politicians trying to build a better society for themselves:

Super increase for politicians - I'd do it for half the price

The Australian average worker are "Fodder" that are being made "Wallow" in the latest round of Industrial Laws changes whilst politicians from both Labor and Liberal have flagged an increase to their superannuation entitlements.

The "Elites" of both politically parties residing in the seats of our Australian parliament have reasoned that it unfair that they get more in superannuation than their novices.

Legislation was passed when Mark Latham was the Leader of the opposition Labor party and bought to the public's attention a common saving to the tax payers purse.

We agree that this legislation did not go far enough and should have included ALL politicians.

The average Australian worker wage rate have been frozen for three years whilst we await "The Work Choice regime"of A.W.A's and the introduction of the imported worker.

Comments made by Politicians initiated for the good press and media spins on the, justification of the superannuation increases, reasoned that Lawyers and Professionals that were elected into Parliament had to start all over again after their terms if they did not win another election and more baby powder was needed from the tax payers purse to soothe the rash.

The Australian citizens is wise to know that Politicians of past have benefited from their positions of responsibility and now hold High profile private employment.

It is a long term dividend to a Candidate to win office.

A comparison was made on behalf of their positive media for the increases and added reasoning was put forth to reinforce their justification that public servants were paid more than them.

Probably, but they actually do the job!

Here I am again, terrorising this thread and getting off topic.

Some more weekend viewing.

This one is worth keeping and sharing with your more somnambulent aquaintences. A through and deep appreciation of the underpinnings of the "war on terror", presented by an expert:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-609179074068244932&hl=en

This stuff deserves threads of it's own on Online Opinion. We should invite Mr Ruddock along to participate - seriously!

Enjoy!

Australia is still evolving,
How profound.
Every country on this universe is evolving,even the countries that we think of as revolting.
Australia could be considered as a country that is revolting.
Locking people down on"house arrest" is just an indication that Australia is revolting.
The Treasurer,Peter Costello is revolting..... Allowing his Mates
to hide $1m in their super fund.Saves paying tax and helping the poor.
I once had a Lecturer who called the people working in the Tax Department as "the unemployable".
Reading the comments it appears that a lot of people believe the author my be one of these "Unemployable".
To spend too many years in one secure occupation does make you a little stale.
Australia,is a country that may turn full circle.We will get back to the "White Australia" years,if all this talk and action by our governments continue.The War against Terrorism is a War against anyone who is not a "Christian,Jewish,Anglo Saxon",just like our beloved author

Thank you Father Kevin for a wonderful sermon. When will your new book be out? Are you still in demand by maritime bodies around the world, solving their mysteries for them? Have you solved the riddle of the Bermuda Triangle? A lot of shipping has vanished in that area. I think the time is right for you, the most formidable authority on open ocean disasters, to solve the many mysteries of the Bermuda Triangle and let many families gain closure.

Thanks Tony - it takes a good deal of courage to provide such a personal account. As you would be well aware, around here if you have any exposed underbelly, you can expect a figurative blowtorch will be applied to it.

It's nice to know that so many commenters here are feeling relaxed and comfortable with how things are and feel Australia has evolved quite enough. Good for them.

Thanks for the article, Tony. An interesting take on where we might be headed and a reminder of where we've been. Considering the shallowness of what passes for current affairs in Australia, this is pretty rare.

For all you folk so keen to criticise Tony for being a retired public servant, perhaps you might care to remember that many former public servants and politicians are now comfortably ensconced on corporate boards, in government sinecures etc etc. Bob Carr, Max Moore-Wilton and Nick Greiner are just a few off the top of my head. Give Tony some credit for spending his retirement doing something he sees as worthwhile, rather than just piling up the money.

TEAM..... I may not like some of Tony's views, and I experience criticism and attack from him also on some matters. But I really think some of you are being much too hard on him over this article.

The most that could reasonably be said, is that he has perceived the situation rightly, but his direction or conclusion may not be all of our cup of tea.
My first post was not meant as an attack on Tony, though it must have seemed like that. I was trying to highlight my understanding of:

a) The situation.
b) The direction.
c) The Destination.

I certainly don't think Tony or Mercurious would be cheering us on the downward slippery slope for sure. But their solutions are a little obscure and weak in my humble view.

CHRIS.. I'm having a look at that video and I don't for a moment doubt that such things happen, are happening, and will continue to happen, for the very reasons you gave.
My only point in regard to that is this, if the evidence is there, then SOCK IT TO THEM.... if not, pull back. Now we come to one of your favorites :) 9/11

I'd be very interested in your take on the Al Qaeda video showing Mr Sin Ladin with the Hijackers :) most illuminating yeah ?

TOPIC
"Evolving" is not the correct word for Australia. There are toooo many people with financial agendas trying to SHAPE the Social fabric of Australia in the image of their financial and power goals.

Alchemist.. Glad you read my rather unusual post. I hope you noticed its particular structure, in the form of the Prophets of old.

Do you know the meaning of those words ? "mene mene tekel upharsin" ?

Think..'Persia' both then, and now. Do a google on the situation at Babylon into which those words entered history. Look closely at the attitudes of the King (Daniel chapter 5) It makes a really good read.
Perhaps you can see some similarities to CEO's of today ?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=5&version=31

Ah Dave.

We have been lied to so comprehensively and thoroughly for the past few years.

Why then do you greet each new piece of excrement as though it were a freshly minted coin? Seems to me we could both use a good cleansing mate.

Doctor Dave - grab your sonic screwdriver and come with me down into the catacomb, where we will interpret the scribblings of Jack the Apostle. Light a candle and read all after, The New Enlightenment Post-9/11, down this page:

http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/1624

- and may the force be with us -

- because I keep seeing my own reflection in the gloom.

After 1996 "We couldn't agree on our own history any more."
The assumptions lurking behind this statement permeate much of the article. Humans are complex with vastly differing perspecitves, and highly variable understanding of the foundations upon which such viewpoints are constructed.
We never have had agreement on our own history; probably never will. Tony Kevin's interesting personal take on his intimate history is blinkered within his own experience and perceptions. As it would be for the rest of us.
John Howard's narrow focus filters out the unsavoury and retains the pleasing; concentrates upon sporting icons like Bradman, or Australians' involvement in the inhuman stresses imposed by the extreme barbarity of war; spotlighting images back to 1915 while other more recent unflattering ones are filtered out by the statement "they are in the past", "black armband" concepts.
I have my good and bad perspectives: The pre-war rumbles after refusal of entry to Australia in 1934 for Egon Kisch wanting to say that Hitler was a bad lad; A Norwegian granny living alone during that war, having a swastika painted on her door by some ignoramus; two Aboriginal children, contemporaries of mine, denied primary schooling at the local because some white parents objected; the post-war Commonwealth public service ethic of loyal advice to parliament, exemplified by Nugget Coombs; the current service enslaved and neutered by government; the post-war assembly of a library of the world's best-available brains for CSIRO - and the current depletion of that invaluable capital.
But most of all, my perception is that Australian society is in denial of its most relevant history; of the place it occupies in this limiting landscape. In "The Great Extermination", edited almost a generation ago by Alan Marshall, the case was well documented that Australia had, for more than a century, good knowledge that society was hell-bent on living the life of Riley by destroying the environmental capital which underpinned its survival.
May we do unto others the most civility compatible with the fundamental necessity of preserving sufficient of the Australian ecosystems for maintenance of the limited numbers it can sustain.

To Leigh,
I disagree with you that people who practice religions like Islam are not races. When people don't marry outside of their religon for a few generations which is especially true of very strict religions, they do in fact become tribes in the biological sense and what is a tribe but a race of people. The same can be said of the Jews in Isreal and any other religion that doesnt intregrate.

I think the biggest change Australia is undergoing is that of changing from a nation of ONE people to a nation of TRIBES, each with it's own culture and set of laws ,many of which are objectionable to ordinary Australians .
But these tribes use the reason that this land is Multi Culture therefore they are entitled to live their own culture because that is what drew them here.
Who can say that is not what was intended when there has never been anything set down to say that Multiculture means if you come to Australia, you live as an Australian.
Newcomers will say that they despise Australian ways, they did not come here to be Australian.
And when this country dissolves into tribal fighting as it surely will,who will stand up and take the blame?

Boaz, I am constantly impressed by your ability to conduct a discussion at great length that is entirely tangential to the topic at hand.

And every so often you throw in a reference or a quote that piques my interest - so when you wrote

>>Do you know the meaning of those words "mene mene tekel upharsin" ?<<

...I simply had to follow it up.

Of the many - and varied - interpretations I came across, this one stood out:

"The question now arises as to the grammatical construction of these words. According to Theodotion, Jerome, and Josephus ("Ant." x. 11, § 3), they are substantives; but according to the Septuagint they are verbs in the perfect passive, which, owing to their vocalization, are difficult of explanation. Clermont-Ganneau, in a long article on this subject ("Journal Asiatique," series 8, viii. (1886), 36 et seq.), first advanced the opinion that they are names of weights, namely, a mina, a shekel, and a peras, which last-named in the Talmud means a half-mina (comp. the expression in 'Eduy. iii. 3), and that may be the dual form, "two half-minas." Thus the mina would be an allusion to Nebuchadnezzar; the shekel, which in value is a very small part of the mina, to Belshazzar; and the two half-minas to Media and Persia (comp. Ta'an. 21b). But as this interpretation does not show how the words predicted the fall of Babylon, Clermont-Ganneau admits the possibility of the first two words being verbs, but suggests that the | should be affixed to the preceding word, which may be vocalized either , "they weighed," or , "weigh"; in either case having as its direct object"

[the actual symbols themselves haven't survived the copy/paste - sorry about that]

I found the analysis interesting, but I am still curious.

What is your opinion? And where do you see the "similarities to CEO's of today"?

To All

Over the next couple of days and nights, we will be assailed by documentaries in memorium of 9-11.

I will be surprised if they don't all sing from the same hymn book.

Marlene and I just watched a new one, which is the greatest collection of "lost" footage we ever saw. Please put this on your list sometime soon. Above all else, see Bush's expressions and listen to what he says. I promise you won't be disappointed.

Takes nearly two hours. If just one person out there finds cause to question their pre-conceived beliefs, it will be worth it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=press+for+truth

Sorry to hijack the topic again...

Cheers.

Hey CC from C what do you mean we have been lied to over the last few years. I just heard a bell go off. I've read about Mr 60% promising to build the Alice to Darwin rail link in 1983. That's more than a few years ago. It's 23 years ago, ain't it?

We are evolving: Ditto Tony, you struck me core mate.

I am someone who has had to understand if not adopt every other "blend" of culture, except the one I want, which is my own.

My story is about the eve of post war generations (forced to flee Austria) and this inter-generational form of displacement, a ongoing phenomenon in this modern world.

It is these things that lead me to "... think about issues of personal accountability for the deeds and complicities of one’s own government.", as we all do if civic partipation is to be promoted as something real.

My own identity didn't really bug me until recently... until I made the decision that I was not going to make myself "conform" to any ocka spin politically, anymore. Especially when I believe something is wrong.

For me the "dramatic" change in Australia began during 1989. It is a wave of things that includes as you said;

"No one could seem to agree on what our national values were any more: we no longer could even find agreed meanings for words, there had been so much spin already that many of our most important words now had to be put in quotation marks when we used them. (Think about: “work choices”, “tolerance” , “mateship”, “fair go”, “national cohesion”, “national pride”, “national security”, “sovereignty”, “war on terror”, “integrity of our borders”, “security risk”, “conscience vote”, “moral issues”, “sustainable economic growth”, “processing”.)"

Given I then decided to study more... in an attempt to understand more... I now realise that is my own cultural experiences that are at the heart of who I am, the subjective key, to how I may percieve certain things. i.e the destruction of war, needless poverty and social justice.

I think if you come from somewhere else, (especially a previous war zone....) the chances are, you are less likely to see things exactly the same as someone who has lived in the same place, all their life... as vice versa.

With people of good will, hopefully our evolution will be towards a Just society that preserves our Liberties and ceases to create enemies through alliances with modern day Empire builders.
We need a society that values personal human development, provides services to promote good health and wellbeing without degrading our environment.
Tertiary education should be accessible to all who qualify without the imposition of substantial debt and the wasteful expenditure on Toys of War should cease, maintaining only a truly Defence Force that does not participate in wars of aggression.
For too long we have been duped by our Government to fear asylum seekers and refugees as terrorists and refusing to conform to "The Australian Way of Life".......That is a myth that too is evolving.
I note your past Tony but I am much more interested in where you are going...Congratulations on your change of direction

I will respond, in a general way, to the interesting posts so far on my essay. Recall its origin – I was invited by OLO to comment on the September featured topic “What creeds should we hold in common?. Is being Australian a feature of your geographical location, your genealogy or your culture?”. That brief invited an honest autobiographical approach – subject to the discipline of less than 1800 words. - about the stages so far in my life as an Australian, and where I am going now. I’m glad some people appreciated the frankness.

To those who thought I was being preachy, I assure you that I value Australian pluralism, our freedom to practice any religion or none at all. And I value our multiculturalism, also a red-rag word to some. On this, some correspondents just don’t know Australian history – to look back to some sort of imagined golden age of a homogeneous culture here before the Muslim/ Asian/non-Angloceltic migrants started coming here - take your pick on where you want to draw your particular discriminatory line in the sand – is a misreading of our social history, which has always involved conflict and accomodation between groups in tension.

On morality in politics, it seems to me that most politics these days – the issues that most matter – are moral issues: global warming, dealing with peak oil, surviving “work choices”, defending human rights under the contrived “War on Terror”, decent reception of asylum-seekers, are all moral issues, and they are all actually interlinked. The Politics of Fear (cf. Carmen Lawrence’s important new book) are designed to to anaesthetise our consciences on these issues. We have to oppose that. People of goodwill can come together to work for a better Australia, whether we are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Confucian or of no religion at all – it doesn’t matter, we are all Australians. ( Part 1 of 2 parts.

(Part 2 of 2 parts) . My admission that I worked fairly comfortably and without many qualms within the system for over 20 years, irritated some people. I don’t deny that charge. I think however that my experience might be usefully indicative of the career experience of many people working within the governance system now –public servants, police, ADF personnel. One important thing I learned on my long walk in Spain is that such people are not the enemy. The enemy is the power structure that sets out to frame how we think and how we live. Those of us who want to improve society need to work out better ways to reach people earning their living within the governance system, people who still have minds and consciences and have the precious right to secret ballot voting There are a great many of them, and excoriating them is neither just nor helpful.

It won’t be any news to anyone who reads my website that I regard John Howard as a traitor to real Australian values and to our sovereignty, a weak and frightened man.whose every day in Kirribilli House (because he won’t live in the national capital) further damages Australia’s political and ethical fabric. But Howard will pass, as Franco passed in Spain, and we will rebuild Australia again. We have started on that agenda already, and it will go on gathering strength. People may like to look at the new item on my website, “Why I have joined the Greens” , 4 September.
http://www.tonykevin.com/JoinedGreens.htm

Tony first...

Your article was not in the least bit 'preachy' to me, so rest easy there. I simply could not see the validity of your final direction in regard to the symptoms you outlined.
Multi culturalism is only a 'red flag' when....its implementation results in the social and identity alienation of a largggge chunk of Australian social/cultural heritage. i.e. The Ango/Scot/Celt/Irish component. Dorothy Mckella said it all...in summary "I know from whence I came....but I love a sunburnt country". i.e. Australian first, ethnicity second. I only have a problem when someone says after 3 GENERATIONS "I'm so proud to be GREEK!" huh ? what ? I think you get the idea.

Pericles.
If you read Daniel 5 you will see that King Belshaazzar indulged himself in a degree of base extravagance which is paralleled by the likes of the ex HIH CEO and I'm sure many others. "Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh and the pride of life".
God basically said "Sure..Ok... have it your way, but tonight you will meet with the ASIC enforcers..(the Persians)" and on that very night, all his pride was destroyed, and he himself was reduced to a pathetic shadow of a man, languishing like an animal in the desert eating Grass.

I find the rise of the "Persians" today, worthy of interest. Can't read much more than that into it.
It all boils down to 'God is not mocked, that which a man sows, he will also reap'.

This applies to us as an 'evolving' nation also. If we use our freedom to display ever increasingly depraved Adverts (each time the last approach doesn't become 'normal', we have to go further to titilate and get attention- Jeans ad.) Its even mathematically verifiable :) 'increments'=function/direction. "With the limit as x->zero" Y=SomeValue. But you can only 'imply' the value of Y it cannot be calculated directly. Something like that.

Thankyou Tony Kevin for your fearless honesty. Your courage has inspired me and others in our work for justice for those denied a voice in this beloved but increasingly hostile country of ours.
Kate Maclurcan, Refugee Advocate

Tony

Thank you for your courage. And thank goodness Australia will continue to evolve, change is a wonderful thing. If we look across the centuries we can see that human beings are becoming better informed, less superstitious, more tolerant and more loving towards each other. In spite of the current fears, we actually live in more peaceful times than at any other time in history.

I believe the majority of people are good, while it only takes a few bad 'apples' to spoil things, I believe that they will go the way of the dinosaurs.

My apologies, Boaz, when you said

>>Do you know the meaning of those words ? "mene mene tekel upharsin"?<<

...I actually thought you meant

>>Do you know the meaning of those words ? "mene mene tekel upharsin"?<<

It now turns out that you were talking about some high-living king, who "saw the writing on the wall" the night before his city was invaded and he himself was killed.

OK, let's take a look at that little fable.

Please explain i) how Daniel managed to translate the writing where everyone else had failed, ii) why he invested three simple words with such embellishment and iii) was Daniel an agent of the Persians who coincidentally turned up a few hours later?

Lastly, where is the evidence that god was the agent of Balshazzar's downfall?

I know, everyone likes a good story, and seeing a bad man fall (especially when they are also rich and carry on a bit), but surely it is possible to come to a sticky end without everyone investing the event with mystical significance.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc rules OK.

Incidentally, re Dorothy McKellar you said

>>"I know from whence I came....but I love a sunburnt country". i.e. Australian first, ethnicity second.<<

Forgive my pickiness, but isn't the sequence actually "ethnicity first, Australia second"?

My goodness Pericles, you still have such a way with words :) haven't lost your touch. I'll place you now on the 'rehabilitated' list after your wierd spin on the abuse of animals thread :)

I won't bore you with my take on Daniel. You can google just as well as I can.

Let me tackle the closest thing to topic you raised though. No, its 'Australia first/Ethnicity second.' and firmly so. But within the socio/cultural framework that emerged as Australia became a nation.

i.e. that which existed up to the end of WWII. Those invited to share the national bounty after this , should come here to be 'Australians'. Not Greeks in Australia. Just as I don't try to be a "Scot" or "English" person here.
I make sure I know about such things as the Armenian Genocide and I trust that the Armenian manager at my gym will come to know about such things as "First Fleet" "Lambing Flat" and "Eureka Stockade".

TOPIC..... (TONY JOINS THE GREENS.)
Tony, that you have responded to the miserable picture of an Australia spiraling ever downward by joining the GREENS... is a mystery great indeed. When I read that my head almost exploded.

For me, (and probably a large proportion of Australians)any party led by a practicing homosexual is 'out' (No apology either). The other morally relative policies they promote are in my view the contributing factor to the very problem you seek to rectify.

I could understand you forming an Australian Nationalism group, but the Greens ? the mind boggles.

Thankyou for your article and your courage in the past 5 years in speaking out and questioning, Tony.

Many years ago I watched a series called the Long Search on TV about religion. It looked at various religions and religious practice around the world. In the concluding episode, the narrator wrapped up by saying that if he had all the truly good and religious people of different faiths in the world in the same room, he would expect to hear a deep reverential silence and respect for each other. I think you would fit right in - strong, tolerant, and courageous. Well done.

Tony thanks for sharing your story, sadly you have some ungracious respondants. I note that you have been critical of both major political parties, but your aim was to show a negative evolution in Australia as awhole.

Banks are a good example of where unfortunate change has happened; greed being a strong driving force. When I was young, Banks provided services for very little cost; now there seem to be new costs being added onto costs, to the detriment of clients.

BOAZ_David complains about the Greens and their leader Bob Brown. I bet he hasn't met Bob Brown, an inspirational man who has been awarded Internationally. Bob Brown is a strong advocate for peace. Apart from educating Australians about environmental matters for many years, the Greens have a proud history of being concerned about social justice issues.

The other day I was listening to the radio and comments were being made about adolescents not being driven by their hormones; the issue is that their brains have not developed to allow for mature decision making. Their brains are wired to make very self centred decisions; whereas, comments were made that a mature person makes decisions which take into account how a decision will impact on other people as well as themselves. A driving imperitive in the community at present is economic rationalism which does not take into account the rights or wrongs of decisions made.

Tony’s view, in every word of this missive, relates how he is feels uncomfortable with every aspect of his life experiences.

I am sure it must be that catholic influence from his father’s side which has resulted in the Jesuit practice of self-flagellation and guilt.

What a whine.

What a moan.

What a waste of hyper-space.

As for the closure comment

“Though the last 10 years have been mostly a time of moral decline in Australia”

I wonder if this is just the sour grapes which have accompanied his demise from the comforts of a public tenure?

Certainly, anyone who hankers after being identified as a “Green” probably thinks the same.

As for Morals, IMHO, “Morals” are what people choose to take on and not what a social hierarchy imposes upon us from above.

That probably sits uncomfortably with those who demand they inflict their dogma on the rest of us, like the Greens and the other groups of opinionated ranters but the truth is “imposed morality” is no morality at all, it is merely a response based on ignorance or fear and in this respect, many Christian Creeds / denominations stand to be measured as corrupt as any Muslim terrorist group.

Col... I find it rather ironic that Tony .... on the one hand complaining about 'moral decline' would join the Greens, who are probably at the cutting edge of that moral decline, and are led by a sexual deviate.

The promotion of homosexual behaviour as 'normal' over the years, is now being followed up with both Nambla and Paedophile Political parties, (Netherlands) using the same arguments to justify their own immorality.

They rely on 'social icons' (Walt Whitman for one) and Psychologists and 'research' and 'surveys' and 'activisim'.

I can pretty much predict with reasonable confidence that soon we will encounter a new word "PaedoPhobia" and it will be used to marginalize those who oppose such practices.

Then, there will be the 'outings' where prominent people in the media or arts who have or are suspected of having had 'naughty liasons' with underage children, are NAMED and shamed..NOT for what they did, but that they did not have the courage to out themselves and live true to what they 'are'. (sound familiar ?)

I've been watching this kind of thing unfold since the 60s, blow by blow. I just feel a bit sad that so many Aussies have been sucked into this 'its ok' mindset for homosexual behavior.

What that success of the gay lobby shows, is that people ARE shapable, and that my rants about social/cultural change being driven by opinion leaders in the Media, Arts and Education are in fact spot on. (besides being based on sound anthropological research anyway)

So, Tony has picked the wrong horse for this race.

David Boaz,

Your abuse here of a fine and brave man is disgusting. In a free country as Australia still is, people's sexuality is their own business. I won't debate with you further on this thread. Have a nice day.

I agree with Tony Kevin's last post. David is bad enough when he just sprouts the Bible as an argument, but his rants about Bob Brown in particular, and homosexuality in general, are just totally beyond the pale.
I am a Green heterosexual. Most Greens that I know are hetoresexual but really their sexuality is of no relevance. I can guarantee that all political parties include homosexuals as do other institutions such as churches and the defence forces. So what?

David, go and have a cold shower and clear your horrible mind.

Thanks a lot Tony Kevin for your bold-inspiring, awesome honesty emancipation in depicting wrongs with the hijacked regime on the Capital Hill. With the far reaching repercussions on the global arena and collateral ravage fallout on the besieged moral folks downunder. Evidently as an increasingly conniving culture of pathological deceit attached itself to what passes for political ideologies expediency. To use term "ideology" is gilding the lily, for it appears that the devious standard, is to be loose with the truth. Set to mislead, to misrepresent and generally try to delude any naive and docile fools.

Courtesy of lingered colonialist relics within the bloody diabolical sphere, under global echelon's hegemony. Noted for the Zionist get-square-mentality, the actions of which are in a stark contrast with the civil society moral-tenets. Where the way to handle a Jew dissident who laid a glove on the Zionist establishment, was to get such a dissenter back with even a harder right. Leaving thus a bloody trail of the Zionist henchmen hit innocent Jew victims.

Culminating in the heinous foul-play consequences for the next-of-kin quite often. So one wonders, as your mother (with all the respect) must have died tragically in 1971, followed by your grandmother. Three years after your father's untimely death in 1968, aged 59. Who without any doubt was born Jewish of the middle class Irish Catholic stock. I feel your pain Tony, within your recollections ..."I floated uneasily between my father's and my mother's very different worlds".

"I envied the easy Australian-ness and simple happiness of life in Sydney's burgeoning red-brick suburbs. I wanted desperately to be like my Australian (father's side) cousins in Lane Cove, and the well-mannered Australian families in Canberra"... So typical youngster's anxiety in the circumstances, not realising that his father camouflaged himself as much as others on the Capital Hill.

"I was brought up Catholic, embarrassed by my rich European-Jewish heritage and tried to play it down"..."I was determined to learn no German, though I heard it at home all the time"... So typical for youngster, who having friends around, while parents spoke German/Yiddish ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4513#55539

• Tony Kevin ..."I grew up in a small flat in Sydney's Elizabeth Bay. It was then a safe haven for European refugees and World War II displaced persons - some, but not all, Jewish. It was a place of culture and civility, but also of sadness and prudent silences. The people washed up here from Europe had much they wanted to forget, of great evils done to them or by them"... Tantamount to Zion-Nazi Kapos taken-up residence alongside the genuine Jew refugees. Escaping Zionist instigated calamity as the means to uproot Jew-lesser brethren of Europe to Palestine.

• Marilyn Shepherd ..."The people who were Nazis (people proved to have put Jews into gas chambers), were imported to Australia as migrants from 1945 onward, while the Jews who were refugees from the Nazis were ordered back to Germany by the whole 'civilized world' in 1938"..."Add to that the fact that we invited over 700 known Nazis to live here after the war"..."In 2002 Australia continued on it's shameful treatment of Jewish refugees when the department decided that even though a family of Russian Jews were refugees they should have gone to Israel. The High court ruled 7-0 that the idea was utterly ludicrous and they rightly got to stay. Kirby pointed out that the convention was written because of what the world allowed to happen to the Jews"... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4782#52291

• Tony Kevin ..."I had finally shed or suppressed my background"..."I was determined to live as a normal Australian, and I did. Over the next two decades, my patriotism remained complacent and uncritical"... In reflection on a fleeting escapism from the immense burden, but Tony's life never meant to be easy ..."The death of my beloved second wife Jennifer in 1989, from an unforeseen brain tumour, fractured a till-then unruffled-life. There followed a long grieving, shading into my postings as ambassador to Poland (1991-94) and Cambodia (1994-97). In those years I began to face issues suppressed for most of my life, about myself and my country"..."I realise now that, though born here, I was in spirit one of ... immigrant kids".

part1.
Well, well, well, here I was expecting some relevant article about Australia and all I get is an epic missive from Tony Kevin which should have been titled… “Self delusion - My life so far…” Seems to me you’ve had problems all your life Tony and still do.
Looks to me you spend too much time these days in some rarefied atmosphere, navel gazing and looking at a half empty glass.
“I grew up in a small flat in Sydney’s Elizabeth Bay. It was then a safe haven for European refugees” “It was a place of culture and civility,”
It was a place created by Australians who hadn’t even heard of Multiculturalism.
“I floated uneasily between my father’s and my mother’s very different worlds.”
Little wonder then that people not born in your situation also have problems with the multicultural situation. Perhaps you should grant them a “fair go” for a change.
“I envied the easy Australian-ness and simple happiness of life in Sydney’s burgeoning redbrick suburbs. I wanted desperately to be like my Australian (father’s side) cousins in Lane Cove, and the well-mannered Australian families in Canberra to whose homes my father took me on visits during my holiday times with him.”
Which is what those opposed to multiculturalism, those you disparage these days, wish to preserve.

part 2.
“I was well-educated, cultured even, but would have resisted any description of myself as an intellectual or as multicultural. I was determined to live as a normal Australian, and I did.”
Really? Good for you. So why do you suppose dissenters to “M” are less cultured or intelligent than you? Why do you suppose they want to also live as “normal” Australians?
“I was only marginally aware of how rapidly we were becoming a multicultural society: my Australia was still the Australia of the Qantas ads, Anglo-Celtic, fresh-faced, squeaky clean, and by choice I was shutting much out. It was a time still of general public optimism and widening of cultural horizons, of a sense that anything was possible for Australia. To me, we were still, without question, the best country in the world.”
We still are and still can be. Multiculturalism was silently, foisted upon us, uncalled for and unwarranted. But we need to end the rot before it is too late.
“We were entering the world of “whatever it takes”, and the old simplicities and decencies of Anglo-Celtic Australia were starting to fray at the edges.” Really? Yet today you disparage the Anglo-Celtic Australia.
“It was a very different place, especially after the 1996 Coalition victory, from the Australia I had grown up in and believed I was representing all those years.”
Is this your real problem? Just what was your voting pattern Tony? Been voting labor all your life? Why is this election the truning point? Hmmm.
“Our socio-economic elites were no longer standard-setters - they were no better or wiser, simply richer and more cynical.”
Got news for you elitist Tony… they never have been

I wasn't going to comment further here, but a couple of recent posts I must respond to for completeness. Leo Braun, thanks for your empathy. One mistaken assumption: my father was of 100% Irish Catholic background - the Kevin family comes from County Armagh and has been in Australia since the 1850s. If my life is interesting, part of its interest is that I am divided equally between a Celtic-based “native Australian” and a Central European Jewish “immigrant” background. So –like many Australians - I can look through the multiculturalism window from both sides.

T800, your attempts to score debating points off my text were fairly pathetic. Truth is complex. Mostly I’ll let my piece stand. A few general things: I don’t think Australian Anglo-Celtic society in the 1950s and 1960s was corrupt. It was maybe a bit narrow-minded, but basically a decent place - and welcoming to immigrants and refugees once it got to know them. The political corruption that came in from the 1980s under Hawke, subsequently perfected under Howard, was not the fault of immigrants. It grew up for various reasons that would need a book to explore: the growth of greedy materialism, the corrosive impact of the Vietnam war, loss of faith and family values … We can’t go back to the old Australia of “Blue Hills” though some of us look back on it with deserved affection. We certainly won’t go back there by being abusive to people of immigrant background, e,g. asking them offensively if they plan to bring up their children as “Chinese” Australians or as “Australians” of Chinese ancestry ( whatever those quotation marks are supposed to mean to the writer). (part 1 of 2

(part 2 of 2)
It is sad that many of the comments under various threads in opposition to “multiculturalism” slide into such language, seriously hurtful to people of recent immigrant background. I wonder if the posters of such comments have any idea of how cruel and insensitive to people of immigrant or non-English-speaking family background this sort of language is. I saw the pain in Jolanda’s two recent posts on the Agnes Tay thread: Jolanda’s family background being white, Catholic, Spanish, by the way – and one of the correspondents then condescendingly reassured her that Spanish culture was OK because it wasn’t so different to the “host” culture; it was just those Muslims and Hindus that were the problem. More sorting, more grading, of who “passes” and who “fails” the tests of “Australian-ness” …

That we have a multicultural society in Australia is now genetic fact: it cannot be legislated or bullied away by fanatical nativist followers of John Howard. The urgent question now is whether we will have a decent multicultural society, or an indecent and cruel one that makes many of its citizens feel they have been relegated to second-class status, subjected to tests of Australianness and all the rest of the ugly Howard-led apparatus to control people through fear.

One can see from many threads on OLO that this question hangs in the balance. A decently liberal Australian society is going to have to be defended, honestly and robustly and without fear of loss of personal privacy by people of immigrant or part-immigrant background, if we want to rebuild peace and mutual respect in our society. The point is, there are a great many of us being hurt by what is going on now: we must have the courage to stand up for social decency in our great shared country.

What is pathetic Tony is your lack of ability to debate.

part 3.
Got news for you elitist Tony… they never have been.
“In our overgrown cities, the old suburban ideal of the good life had been tarnished. The public infrastructure of health and education and transport, so new and fresh in the confident 1960s, was already decaying.”
Well you can shoot that one home to the state governments can’t you. BTW mostly they have been Labor.
“There weren’t so many happy families around any more. There were fewer children. Too many of them were being neglected or abused in dysfunctional domestic set-ups where mothers or fathers or their new partners were putting themselves first and their kids’ welfare and security a long way behind. People were drawing in on themselves, becoming more self-centred, reluctant to engage in community. The old churches were wilting, and new (and sometimes quite creepy) American-style happy-clappy groups were moving into the vacuum.”
Well Tony you can’t reasonably blame Howard for that. Does that mean you are being un-reason-able?
“And there was racism - not so much against Aborigines anymore, but against darker-skinned immigrants - Muslims or those who might look so. The cancer of the ever-worsening Israel-Palestinian conflict had spread to Australia. Somehow we had become Israel’s and the US’s military ally in their never-ending brutal wars and proxy wars on Middle Eastern people.”
Oh my god… the “R” word. Much touted in the Labor years and misused by the PC brigade to shut-down dissent. Particularly about Multiculturalism and immigration matters Tony. Hawke refuse to put the issue to a referendum. As did Fraser before him. BTW the ME problem of Israel and Palestine has had very little prominence here. Maybe it’s more to do with your prejudices and those you mix with. Try the mainstream for a change.
“We had become a more militarised country,”
You are kidding

Dear Tony
you might not like my description of Bob Brown, nor wish to debate with me, but thats ok. Part of Aussie culture is calling a spade a spade. I'll debate the issue nose to nose anytime.

You said:
"I wonder if the posters of such comments have any idea of how cruel and insensitive to people of immigrant or non-English-speaking family background this sort of language is"

I wish to put the other side of that coin.

I wonder if those promoting 'Multi' culture are aware of how dehumanizing such language is to those who consider themselves participants in 'Australian' culture ?

Our objection to Multi culturalism is a rejection of the idea of bringing say Chinese or Islamic culture here "in a manner" which could threaten the social cultural and political equalibrium of the country....and THAT is the key issue.

All we are asking is to have our culture recognized, respected and not threatened. In terms of immigration, this means that we control numbers and origins such that the primary goal of basic cultural homogeneity is maintained.

It is a demographic fact, that around 70% of Australians trace their ancestry back to:

a) Both parents born in Australia
b) One parent at least born in Australia
Column B05a in the census of 2001 shows clearly the predominance of the Anglo Celt component of our population, and therefore our culture.

The ONLY reason an Agnes Tay or a Mohammed so and so would be offended by our assertion of Australian culture is if they WISHED TO CHANGE IT or felt they had something "superior" to offer and that sir....is racism or cultural imperialism.
Would we be offended if we went to Italy and they spoke of the integrity of Italian culture ? hardly.
We are not school children here.

part 4.

“We were obviously now a complex multicultural society... ...but not a particularly happy or well-integrated one.”

But not a particularly happy or well-integrated one eh. That’s because tony… “M” does not require integration. Just tolerance… which Tony… doesn’t mean acceptance.

“No one could seem to agree on what our national values were any more: we no longer could even find agreed meanings for words, there had been so much spin already that many of our most important words now had to be put in quotation marks when we used them. (Think about: “work choices”, “tolerance” , “mateship”, “fair go”, “national cohesion”, “national pride”, “national security”, “sovereignty”, “war on terror”, “integrity of our borders”, “security risk”, “conscience vote”, “moral issues”, “sustainable economic growth”, “processing”.)”

Gee I wonder what policy or policies brought this about? It’s been happening for a generation tony. Wake up man! Do you also blame Howard for the Indonesian tsunami and cyclones and volcanoes etc, etc, etc…

“We couldn’t agree on our own history any more. We seemed to be losing our sense of who we were, as our major media and national assets passed into foreign ownership and as we fell more and more into the American socio-cultural orbit.”

See above and you can thank Whitlam, Grassby, Hawke and the Keating governments for starting the sell off of Australia. BTW the US is not the only country we trade with… did you forget that. Does China ring a bell?

“My Australian dream has finally shattered.”

Who said we wanted it. Seems to me you’d be one of the last people I’d be asking for advice from.

“I still love my country”

Sure you do Tony. That’s why you scapegoat it and it’s people. That’s why “more than ever” you divorce yourself from ordinary Australians and the Australia you once wanted… more than anything… to be part of.

As for your rant including; “the post-1945 Anglo-Celtic ascendancy”

Excuse me? Please explain. Tony. Old boy… The Anglo-Celtics have been in the ascendancy since 1788. It’s time you had a REALITY CHECK..

• Tony Kevin ..."That we have a multicultural society in Australia is now genetic fact: it cannot be legislated or bullied away by fanatical nativist-followers of John Howard. The urgent question now is whether we will have a decent multicultural society, or an indecent and cruel one that makes many of its citizens feel they have been relegated to second-class status, subjected-to-tests of Australian-ness and all the rest of the ugly Howard-led apparatus to control people through fear"!

• Paul Lockyer ..."Well Senator Brown, what about the Prime Minister's (fear) argument, though, it's trashing the gene-pool if you don't make financial reward one of the benefits for
(legal-eagles) getting into Parliament"?

• Bob Brown ..."I don't know that there's a strong argument that the gene-pool is of any particularly-great-standard. You know, the gene-pool in politics is best served by people who have high values, who respect their fellow citizens, who believe in being true democrats. And this money-grabbing that we've seen this week - and it's now four-new-ideas coming out of the Prime Minister's office endorsed by well, three-of-them endorsed by the Labor Party as well - doesn't reflect the highest values in politics and I think we should be looking to a better gene-pool. But I don't think you get that by paying more money. And I think there needs to be a greater emphasis on integrity in politics, rather than simply saying if we give more money to people we'll get better value. There is no evidence for that, and in fact, there's quite a strong argument that we don't want to go the American way where only millionaires get into politics and Parliament. You lose that rich diversity of the community, which a proper democracy should have".

• Paul Lockyer ..."So do you believe you're paid too much"? Bob Brown ..."I believe the pay is high. We're amongst the top 5% of salary earners. If you don't include those outrageous payments going to CEOs - you know, multimillion-dollar-payments, including to CEOs of companies which return ... have bad balance sheets at the end of the year"... http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1735695.htm

• Tony Kevin ..."One can see from many threads on OLO that this question hangs in the balance. A decently liberal Australian society is going to have to be defended, honestly and robustly and without fear of loss of personal privacy by people of immigrant or part-immigrant background, if we want to rebuild peace and mutual respect in our society. The point is, there are a great many of us being hurt by what is going on now: we must have the courage to stand up for social decency in our great shared country"!

• T800 [Ted Lapkin] ..."Well, well, well, here I was expecting some relevant article about Australia and all I get is an epic-missive from Tony Kevin"!

• Marilyn Shepherd ..."Yawn, here we go again, defending Australia no-matter what the truth really is. My German family came here in 1844, stole the land north of the Adelaide Plains and drove out the aboriginal owners, then they moved-to the Mallee and did the same thing. It is in the history books for heavens' sake. Should I simply ignore it? Then the Cornish and Welsh, Irish and English came from 1890-1920, moved to the Mallee and helped to drive-off the aborigines and steal the land. It is now ruined out there you know. Mile-after-mile of scrub was torn-down by my family in the name-of-planting more crops".

"The land is a giant dustbowl, it's a salt-pan with tonnes of fertiliser required to grow anything. I know because I watched it all happen in the 1950's and 60's. Then I left. My English grandfather went to war for the Poms, not for Australia, and spent 6 years in the ... blood, so that Australia would not lock-up children in the deserts, not follow blindly to other stupid wars and in the 1960's got an exemption for his youngest son not-to-go to Vietnam. Do not lecture me about my history in the country and do not ever, ever tell me I have to leave because I don't like what is happening to it. Do you pathetic children get my drift"? http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4866#54763

Leo, I have no idea who Ted Lapkin is, I also have no idea why you post quotes without any comment yourself or clue as to what you are getting at.

At least Tony in his own self-absorption makes points that are easily disputed and refuted, even though he likes ignoring same, as is the won't of self-appointed political elitists.

• OLO Chief Editor ..."The dangers of Hansonism were one of my inspirations for setting up On Line Opinion - a site where people could bring their prejudices, but also a willingness to engage. The success of this site shows that, given a chance, even those people who have closed their minds, love the opportunity to argue. Hopefully from the sparring, some greater understanding and tolerance will spring and the tribes will become more peaceful. None of us might change our minds, but we might change our dispositions and recognise our intellectual foes as being at least worthy of respect"!

"The media made Pauline into what she was by talking about her incessantly in derogatory and dismissive terms. They accentuated an 'us' and 'them' (what David Flint refers to as the 'elites' and 'ordinary Australians', or Mark Latham called 'tourists' and 'residents'). The tribes are always there, but not always as at war as they were in the middle 90s. Pauline became the heroine of the outsiders ... who was eventually ground-down by the military efficiency of the major party oligarchy, but doing a lot of damage as she went"!

Without any doubt resulting predictably in a highly demoralised electorate with the utterly bewildered pseudo-members of the phantom-party, deluded deliberately on a wild-goose-chase. To culminate in entirely disenchanted voters-fallout, who unlikely to be lured again in the foreseeable future to trust any emerging new alternative party. As a result of the master-stroke in pre-emptive con-jobs jab-inoculation by clandestine plotters on the Capital Hill.

Who having fanatical lackeys to patrol OLO forum, envisaged by citizenry as a bastion of the participatory democracy in Australia. If not for the abusive thugs on the pay-roll, bent to drive-out the morality evolved public servants, parliamentarians and dissident scholars, who having the guts to unveil controversial topics, at times even to joint OLO deliberations. Only to cope personal attack consequences (from the first post in this thread), due to untouchables sway. Slinging in a malicious slur with the impunity on OLO forum. Faced with revulsion by the ethical readers, reluctant to take-a-plunge into debate!

• Jolanda ..."Should we humble citizens dare-to-speak, they will simply treat us like peasants. Why? Because they can! And why can they? Because people allow it, turn a blind eye and don't support each other. Nobody is required to care. We are not even required to-care-enough to be fair! I believe that there is a proportion of the public, that is apathetic. But, as a member of the public who has lodged formal complaints and depositions in relation to how serious allegations of misconduct and corruption by Government Department are being handled and dealt with (and covered-up), my experience is that most people don't want to get involved. Even go so far as to totally ignore and avoid you"!

Those that choose to comment and get involved, tend to harass you in turn. Using bullying tactics in order to silence and shut you down. They attack, insult, discredit and abuse. Pretty much, whist everybody turn a blind eye. Allowing it to happen! That is what you get, if you want to blow the whistle on corruption or misconduct in Government Departments. As a result you stand alone, ostracised, depleted, vilified, battered and bruised. Usually also totally broke. There must be Laws to protect whistleblowers within the Government Departments! But at present, members of the Public are left to stand alone. To face the big guns, vulnerable with no protection"!

"Until that process, culture and attitude changes, nothing will change. The system has set-up the process-of-administration so as to cover-up their failures and misconduct. They use their bullying tactics to send clear message: Do-not-mess with the big guns as you wont win! That is the culture that needs to be changed"..."Government often picks the most ridiculous complaints to investigate publicly, so as to look like they are doing their job. Then they use it to discredit grievances lodging public. When legitimate complaints and issues are brought-up, they just say that it's an another one of 'those' complaints. Everyone nods and says 'yeah we know which ones'. Thus most just turn a blind eye and the matter is deemed closed"... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4574#45979

T800, have you been outed as Ted Lapkin? I've been studying the prose style of your contributions after Leo Braun's suggestion and yes, I do think I can see some stylistic similarities.

I initially thought a T800 might be some sort of tank - heavy, ponderous, slow-moving - but it turns out to be a model of "The Terminator" in the movies of the same name. Here is what Google says:

"T800: First Appearance: The Terminator (1984)

Powers/Abilities/Functions: Superhuman strength; Detailed files on human anatomy; Can perfectly mimic voices; Infrared Vision. Able to interface with computers. Expertise in all manner of weapons."

Soumds like a good description of our Ted, former Israeli paratrooper, now a Have Gun Will Travel intellectual warrior of distinction in the cause of the Israeli Hard Right.

Tell us, T800 - are you really our Ted?

I'm not your anything tony.. and i don't know Ted.
looks like you all failed detective school.

Anytime you feel brave enough to debate some facts let me know.

OLO needs some help with this one.

Sorry leo I aint Ted.

Hell... I'm not even Jewish....