Strewth

That was probably your best rebuttal of BD's spurious arguments thus far. However, am very fed up with the name-calling - makes you-all look like children.

There is without a doubt much fault on both sides. Yet people who point this out are judged as anti-semitic or bleeding hearts or lefties or all of the above.

Palestinians have as much right to a state as do Israelis. If Israel could return to its original borders, this would be a big step towards peace. For people claim that ALL palestinians want the demise of Israel is as absurd as it is inflammatory. Moderate people of all political stripes want to live in peace, it is the extremists on both sides who inflame the situation. There is no point in trying to reason with the likes of BD - he cannot think past the bible - he is very unsophisticated in his world view.

Have an interesting link as regards Hezbollah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5291420.stm

"Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war."

Imagine a fundy evangelist christian or zionist apologising.............have qualified this as I know there are plenty of reasonable christians and jews - we just don't hear enough from them.

Dear Strewth
Your points.

1/ How a group came into existence can NEVER justify genocide but I do accept ethnic cleansing as a better option in the long run. In order for an ethnically cleansed people to be deserving of sympathy, they must not treat others as they were treated. But my point there in any case was the universality of 'sin' or wrong doing.

2/ Context ? Actually all I'm doing is GIVING the fuller context, rather than being selective. I don't deny what has happened to the Palestinians, I just show THEM as they really are also. 'human'.

3/ The 'real' bullies ? *cough*... Resistance ? *wide eyed look* murdering 500+ innocent people ...mothers, children, granny's is not exactly 'resistance' mate.. get real. Seeking to overturn a State (JOrdan) is not 'resistance' its called insurrection.

4/ International Law ? I'm just being brutally realistic and honest about how it really is. Law without power simply does not exist. Unless you refer to divine revelation. That exists by itself. Human law is based on who has the guns.. ask the police :) Sad..but true.

5/ The book ? I don't really need to read it. If it shows 'Israelis harsh, brutal at times, ruthless at times, I can accept that. But if it shows 'PLO all good' I cannot accept that because it simply is not true.

Scout was both right and wrong. Your polemic against my position was very weak, her comment about all sides having things to answer for was totally correct.

Tell us more about 'you' ? :) In Melbourne ? If yes, I'll alert you about next time I do an activist operation at RMIT or MELBOURNE Uni, and you can come discuss with me. Now that would be nice right ?

If I have a rally at the State Library I could give you first speech I'll take second.

Scout,

You are so right about Bamboozled. "I don't really need to read it," says it all. Why, oh why, didn't I listen to that immortal advice: Never gamble with a guy called Jake, never eat at a place called Mum's, but most of all, NEVER, ever discuss a serious matter with a zealot.

Never again!

Strewthy

all your last post shows is that you are as 'bigoted' in your views as you consider I am in mine.

I've nailed my colors to the mast on numerous occasions.

Insistence on seeing the full picture in overall historical context is hardly a 'closed minded zealot'. But seeing things in a narrow, specific context which is structured towards and suits a particular purpose.....now thats getting close to the closed minded situation.

Just because I disagree with your approach to the 'Palestinians' and in so doing I highlight their OWN atrocities.... I'm a 'zealot' ?

Well.. I probably am, as I wrote in passionate terms to both the Premier and Opposition leader this morning after I found THIS in the Age... where an Islamic group is doing everything that 2 pastors in Melbourne are being SUED for.. and claiming free speech... (They are in Sydney)
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/islamist-group-denies-hateincitement-charges/2006/08/28/1156617274970.html

They (Hizb Ut Tahir) said "exposing realities" did not incite hatred.
GOOD..

1/ Mohamed was a murderer.
2/ Mohamed tortured and mutilated bodies of living prisoners.
3/ MOhammed was a sexual adventurer and under our law would be considered guilty of child molestation.
4/ The religion of Mohamed allows for on going rape of captive slave girls.

They (Hizb)said: "Rather, what incites hatred is the spilling of the blood of innocent men, women and children … at the hands of the Israelis."

ISRAELIS = 'JEWS'...and in Victoria THAT IS VILIFICATION. So.. my campaign to rid us of this Act continues. I would rather they are free to hang themselves with their own words, than all of us be under 'Sharia law by stealth'.......